Real thanksgiving

[Omar B]

Feudalism in some isolated cases still continues to this day, nothing odd about that sort of society going on. Wives dieing with husbands is hardly an India only practice. Is this an attempt to obfuscate or change the topic? We were discussing the first thanksgiving. Or are you out of sources since you seem to lean on the one account.

 

[billc]

You brought up India and Japan. Books to look at, "wild in wood, the myth of the eco-savage" "Dinesh d'souza's book "the end of racism" The book Constant Battles, the book War before civillization, The books from my history classes in college, "Michael medved's Ten big lies about America" These forums are only good for certain things, in depth historical analysis is not one of them. I just brought up the one account because it was something I remembered from college. Is it the only evidence, the only source, of course not. I just believe that people are people and not saints, if they are indians or europeans or japanese or indians they all have their good points and they all have their warts.

 

[Steve]

No.

Really? Sure seemed like it.

I think he's trying to say that the Pilgrims were from a more advanced society and the natives had nothing to teach them.

Well, that part of the agenda is pretty clear. But in the OP, it sure sounded like he was going off on the liberal media for somehow trying to hide the true history of thanksgiving from everyone. And then, "The first example of socialisms defeat is finally getting a hearing." Socialism is a politically charged word in any political climate, but in this current era, where our sitting President is being lambasted by a very specific demographic, it's a term with very specific meaning.

Sure sounds like a neo-conservative rant to me. I think someone should take billcihak's turkey away from him and, if it were me, he wouldn't get any pumpkin pie, either. Trying to spread ignorant hatred is fine on most days, but Thanksgiving?

Come on, billcihak. Give it a rest. You've been posting on this thread literally all day long. Go spend some time with your family. And if you don't have family around, find some friends to hang with. Thanksgiving is a time to be with people NOT hating on everyone.

 

[billc]

Actually, I consider myself a Limbaugh, Coulter, levine conservative with a side of Hannity thrown in. There's no hate going on here, I just like to discuss topics that usually go unnoticed. Why is it when someone doesn't support an oft held, often wrong view point that the people of the left want to punish and silence them. Just this week, actually last week, Senator Rockefeller lamented that he wanted to get the FCC to get rid of Fox news. So much for being open to all sides of an argument. I would have to agree more with Danesh D'souza, Obama is probably more of an anti-colonialist than a mainstream socialist.

 

[granfire]

What is the point of this thread anyhow?
Rush is I am assuming Limbaugh....not exactly the poster child for thruthiness in the media world. Fox net anything is not, either.

As to the claim the pilgrims were so advanced in their methods. Well, think again. They might have been for their home in the climate of England, but other locations other problems and methods. Ask any gardener who ever moved long distance!
Also, the 'we know better' way of colonization is what is still destroying tropical rain forests, just because the eco system is not like the fertile plains of Europe or the US midwest with huge amounts of topsoil.

Now we entered the feudal eras around the world. If you think the pilgrims were less feudal, I think you are mistaken. As they were children of their times, they would have adhered to the strict principles of patriarchy.
And considering that 2 years after they landed they finally prospered, maybe it took them this long to figure it out.

I think your statements are condescending at best, borderline inflamatory and founded on at least one questionable source.

The only thing I do give you is that the first thanksgiving his over romanticized. But considering the holiday originated during the Victorian era...

 

[Steve]

Actually, I consider myself a Limbaugh, Coulter, levine conservative with a side of Hannity thrown in. There's no hate going on here, I just like to discuss topics that usually go unnoticed. Why is it when someone doesn't support an oft held, often wrong view point that the people of the left want to punish and silence them. Just this week, actually last week, Senator Rockefeller lamented that he wanted to get the FCC to get rid of Fox news. So much for being open to all sides of an argument. I would have to agree more with Danesh D'souza, Obama is probably more of an anti-colonialist than a mainstream socialist.

I think I'm wondering why, on Thanksgiving, you're arguing at all, regardless of what kind of political creature you choose. That's really what I'm wondering. But maybe it's just me.

Once again, my recommendation is that you table your agenda for a day, chill out a little, have a glass of mulled cider, eat a piece of pumpkin pie with an extra helping of whipped cream and have a stimulating discussion with family and/or friends.

 

[jks9199]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

jks9199
Super Moderator

 

[aedrasteia]

Bill

no crankiness here - this could be an interesting conversation!

* can you provide a link to the Stossel piece? I was away eating large amounts of poultry and did not see it.
* can you briefly summarize the point of the specific objections about viewpoints on First Thanksgiving? I'm still confused about the nature of the problem regarding this?

just a brief note - over the last 40 years historians and anthropologists have developed a body of abundant scholarship based on primary sources, regarding relations/contact between earliest English settlers (Separatists in the 1620s) and native communities as well as considerable research (again based on primary sources, both written and excavated) on nutrition and food preparation. My post-graduate anthropology interest expanded to nutritional and culinary anthropology in the last ten years. The survival of the earliest european and english settlers has been intensely examined - again, based on time-specific written material and archeological excavation. Lots an lots of enthusiastic, well-argued and well documented perspectives. Anthropologists and historians LOVE this topic.

I have just started wondering why no-one ever questioned the story about thanksgiving before.
How did a stone age, primarily hunter gathering group like the early native americans help a more advanced, agriculturally more sophisticated, group of people learn about farming? Well, if you listen to Rush each year at thanksgiving and watch Stossel tonight, you will find out that what we have all been taught about that event may not be accurate.

???No one ever questioned? good grief, Historians constantly question themselves and each other, revise their perspectives, do more hands-on, source based research and argue with each other. So do good anthros! Your examples/evidence of 'no-one'?
??? 'the story'? what do you mean? which story? the story in basic elementary school textbooks in 1930? 1950? which ones? Texas? the ones in 1740 primers? the one in a TV cartoon today? can you provide examples/evidence of 'the story about thanksgiving' which you or the other people you reference object to? the 'story ' constructed in the late 1880s and taught to new immigrants in the US large cities as part of the assimilation process?
I'd like to take a look at examples of 'what we all have been taught about that event',
I'm guessing you mean history/social studies in K-12 schools. So I really want a link to Stossel's program or maybe he has written something about this?

hope you are well and stuffed with goodies.
thanks, A

 

[billc]

The stossel piece can be found at his website at fox business news. I was pointing out that the emphasis has always been placed on the indians saving the pilgrims from starving. Stossel points out, as did Rush, that from the account of William Bradford, it was more the communal living, where each person, regardless of work effort, recieved an equal share. Bradford wrote that this practice was he primary reason they starved those first two years. Once the pilgrims were allowed to farm their own plots of land, he notes in his journal, they began to have surplus's. That was pretty much my point. Less that the indians saved the pilgrims, more that individuals working for themselves created incentive and motivation that communal living didn't. The emphasis is always that the Indians saved the pilgrims, and this idea is all throughout popular culture. I was at my parents and my mother had a soap opera on and one of the characters made a toast to the Indians for saving the pilgrims. I do not think it is a completely accurate account of how it happened. I know historians debate these issues, it just is not in the important, popular culture. That is all. I can't quite remember how it is taught in schools, but I am pretty sure the indivual effort of the pilgrims is never mentioned. oh, some people watch football, I like to debate controversial topics and hash them out. That is far more interesting to me and far more entertaining as well.

 

[granfire]

so you replace it with another set of propaganda...

Obviously you have never farmed yourself and in that tried to apply your skill in a different climate. Nor have the talking heads of your chosen network.

 

[billc]

Nor have I walked on the moon, or deep sea dived or hiked the appalachian trail, or manned a weather station in the antarctic...I don't believe in replacing one set of propaganda with another, but the Indian version is the only one you hear in popular culture and in the schools. I think Bradford should get more of a hearing, that's all.

 

[granfire]

Nor have I walked on the moon, or deep sea dived or hiked the appalachian trail, or manned a weather station in the antarctic...I don't believe in replacing one set of propaganda with another, but the Indian version is the only one you hear in popular culture and in the schools. I think Bradford should get more of a hearing, that's all.

Well, I prefer sources closer to the subject matter, like real historians over a polemic 'news' network.

Like the interesting revelations about the real menu of the first feast.

 

[Steve]

Nor have I walked on the moon, or deep sea dived or hiked the appalachian trail, or manned a weather station in the antarctic...I don't believe in replacing one set of propaganda with another, but the Indian version is the only one you hear in popular culture and in the schools. I think Bradford should get more of a hearing, that's all.

What do you think the agenda is behind what you're now just calling the "Indian" version? Obviously, you believe that there's an agenda at work here. What do you think that is?

Do you think that Fox has an agenda? Presuming so, what might that be?

 

[crushing]

Thanksgiving as a recurring national holiday in the US began in 1863 as a proclamation from President Lincoln and there was no mention of pilgrims and Indians. Lincoln's carefully crafted proclamation not only enumerrated America's blessings, but also suggested that "foreign states" should stay out of the war between the states.

http://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2009/nr09-25.html

There have been harvest festivals, such as the one(s) between the pilrims and Indians, since the beginning of agrarian societies. Given the fact that each region has its own growing season and those seasons could change somewhat from year to year it would make sense that the harvest festival, or "thanksgiving celebraton", would be more of a regional celebration of the harvest.

Making it a national holiday was done for political reasons. Changing it from the 4th Thursday in November to the 3rd Thursday in November to extend the Christmas shopping season was done for economic and ultimately political reasons.

Based on the co-opting of various other holidays I get the feeling that rebranding a harvest gathering that goes back for thousands of years as Thanksgiving was also done for religious reasons.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Ok, the pilgrims who had the thanksgiving with the natives did not have slaves. One of the reasons they left the old world was because they disagreed with the practice, they had many reasons, but it was in there.

As is pretty clear from the quote which you yourself highlighted the OP was talking about the native Americans having slaves.

Here's the part of the OP's post that you quoted,and underlined:

Remember as well that the early people also had slaves, and captured members of other tribes, and ate their enemies and engaged in torture and human sacrifice.

The Pilgrims didn't capture members of "other tribes" or engage in canibalism.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Steve]

The Pilgrims didn't capture members of "other tribes" or engage in canibalism.

Pax,

Chris

As far as we know!

 

[billc]

By undermining the historical record, attacking the institutions that created this country, there are people who would use that to change this country into more of a European socialist country. They need to undermine the constitutions seperation of powers, because they need a strong federal government, they need to destroy the rugged individualism of America's past because it is easier for the federal government to act when the citizens are dependant on it for their medicine, retirement, their wages and so on. By attacking the past they can organize the future. If they can make the people of this country doubt the goodness of it, it is easier to make them except changes to it. Before you doubt this, Rush quoted either Paul Krugman or Thomas Friedman, I'll have to look it up. This guy said that he wished for one day, that the U.S. had a government like the Chinese did so that we could pass the legislation that he thought was necassary. These are the guys who like to condemn every aspect of the founding of this country.

 

[granfire]

Step away from the koolaid...

If it wasn't for socialist movements around the world the majority of us would still live in squalor, work 7 days a week, 12 or 14 hours a day just to starve over the the one meal you can afford. Forget luxuries like martial arts training for fun or of your choosing.

I find it laughable when people with zero historical sense try to sell their agenda.
Not to mention the Europhobia you are talking about.

Socialist movements have given us such things as unions so we can have paid vacations, minimum wages and workman's comp or OSHA.

 

[crushing]

Thanksgiving weekend history lesson: We've always been at war with Eastasia.

 

[billc]

Granfire, if you hadn't noticed, the current ecomomic breakdown in Europe comes from a large part from spending other peoples money, eventually you run out of it. Thanks Prime Minister Thatcher. This is a lot off topic but I reply, socialism also murdered over 100 million people, and more, in the soviet union, china, germany, italy, japan, cambodia, and vietnam and has kept more people, as Milton Friedman would say, in crushing poverty than it has helped. Thanks.