"Real Thanksgiving," a "poem" by billcihak

[elder999]

So, I was inspired by Make the Pie Higher for this,

I know you'll be sad, but Darth was a dem. not a republican.
I would suggest you engage in heavy drinking
Just want to say I am not trying to turn this into an abortion thing
It is just that it is not only the womans body,
there is the other body inside.
No more for me on the abortion thing
I would suggest you engage in heavy drinking

There are numerous checks on who gets sent to gitmo
If he is captured and they know he has info.
waterboard him
THIS IS NOT THE WAY THE C.I.A. CONDUCTED WATERBOARDING
I support cutting flesh, filling stomachs with water and jumping on them,
pulling fingernails, using electrodes and other types of actual torture
Let me try.
See how that works out there?
I would suggest you engage in heavy drinking

Would you march with the Klan?
Please, let me have it granfire, I can't wait.
National socialists are in fact socialists as are
communists who are international socialists.
Chicken.
I would suggest you engage in heavy drinking

Did the unions help kill the soap opera?
college course, does it teach union thuggery?
Some dare call it rationing,
Real thanksgiving

The mythical nature of early peoples is the problem. Treat them like people, not saints
The Truth About the First Thanksgiving.. remember an account that I read
communal efforts rarely succeed
communal efforts rarely succeed
communal efforts rarely succeed
Yeah, communal efforts rarely succeed
I would suggest you engage in heavy drinking

Again, National socialists are socialists
communism, fascism, and national socialism are all socialism
I would suggest you engage in heavy drinking
Real thanksgiving



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[billc]

By jove, I think you've got it Elder. And here I didn't think you were paying attention. Nice job.

 

[billc]

You didn't put anything in the poem about liberals in hollywood, I think that would have helped round out the poem. You could mention some of the people I disagree with, that might make it more interesting to some of the people I have had the longest debates with.


****The fact that you didn't once mention Blade 96 is really a travesty. If there is one poster that should get recognition it is her. She at least recongnizes my humor, if not my genius. You could also mention long suffering Tez. She doesn't like me much but mentioning her would round out the poem and give it a touch of seriousness.*****

****Yeah, you really need to mention Blade 96******

****Now they may not agree with me but I think Big Don, Twin fist, Crushing, Cryozombie and lucky boxer could use a mention as well. ****

***Elder, you and Bill Mattocks, should also be mentioned. A man should be measured by his opponents as well as his friends. And the also long suffering Bob the man who really made that poem possible deserves some kudos as well, don't you think.

It may be unwieldly with all the extra material, but you could pull it off if you tried.

Thanks Elder, nice work.

 

[Tez3]

Like doesn't come into it I'm afraid, as Canuck did I lost family in the Nazi camps, all my mother's family, she was the only survivor so I grew up with no maternal relatives. This makes the socialist/facist/nazi thing very real for me and not at all amusing. What I do appreciate from you however is that you don't make it into a personal argument, I have enough with one hatemonger chasing me and it's tiresome. I do wish you'd study your history though

 

[Cryozombie]

Dude, thats awesome. Do me next!

 

[granfire]

Like doesn't come into it I'm afraid, as Canuck did I lost family in the Nazi camps, all my mother's family, she was the only survivor so I grew up with no maternal relatives. This makes the socialist/facist/nazi thing very real for me and not at all amusing. What I do appreciate from you however is that you don't make it into a personal argument, I have enough with one hatemonger chasing me and it's tiresome. I do wish you'd study your history though

It is seemingly an impossible concept to grasp for some that to a lot of people, still, this is not a mere footnote in a history book, but very much close to home and part of the family history.

 

[Tez3]

It is seemingly an impossible concept to grasp for some that to a lot of people, still, this is not a mere footnote in a history book, but very much close to home and part of the family history.

Indeed, you are correct, only a couple of days ago one of the last surviving servicemen of the First World War died. It's easy to forget that there are a great many people still alive who witnessed at first hand what some just think of as 'history'. That's why statements should be made with great care, for every starement Bill makes on socialism etc there are hundreds of thousands of people who lived through and knew intimately the actual circumstances. It's why it's worth reading and listening to eye witness statements rather than media pundits.

 

[granfire]

Indeed, you are correct, only a couple of days ago one of the last surviving servicemen of the First World War died. It's easy to forget that there are a great many people still alive who witnessed at first hand what some just think of as 'history'. That's why statements should be made with great care, for every starement Bill makes on socialism etc there are hundreds of thousands of people who lived through and knew intimately the actual circumstances. It's why it's worth reading and listening to eye witness statements rather than media pundits.

Indeed. History books have always been subject to interpretation. The sources are pure tho.
To get to the actual events you have to sift your way through what the people of the time left behind! (and the Nazis left A LOT behind!)

And frankly, socialists and communists were in pretty much the same boat as Jews 'back then', so calling Hitler a socialist is like spitting on a few mass graves!

 

[billc]

Hitler killed communists because they were his direct competition for the socialists in germany. Many german socialists went with hitler because he didn't believe in the international model of socialism. He wanted to be in charge of germany. He didn't care about spreading socialism to the larger world. You could ask some polish survivors how the communists behaved before worldwar 2 and then after the communists drove out the national socialists. The stories are virtually the same.

 

[granfire]

Hitler killed communists because they were his direct competition for the socialists in germany. Many german socialists went with hitler because he didn't believe in the international model of socialism. He wanted to be in charge of germany. He didn't care about spreading socialism to the larger world. You could ask some polish survivors how the communists behaved before worldwar 2 and then after the communists drove out the national socialists. The stories are virtually the same.

billi

do not talk of tings you have no knowledge.

Socialists: poor people
national socialist: poor middle class and upper class

polish survivors: leave them out of this. A slavic ethnicity they were deemed lesser beings. Good for working but nothing else...

in other terms: shush, you know nothing and what's worse, you don't care to learn anything...

 

[billc]

The polish people suffered under the socialists of germany and russia. You might want to crack a history book yourself.

 

[CanuckMA]

It is seemingly an impossible concept to grasp for some that to a lot of people, still, this is not a mere footnote in a history book, but very much close to home and part of the family history.

Indeed. A few weeks ago we observed Passover. The entire family gathered for the Seder. All 10 of us. my mother, sister ane one nephew could not join us. That would have made 14. Sum total of the extended family because my parents and my wife's parents were all that survived the Nazis. History is very much alive, and will be for some generarions to come.

 

[billc]

Hmmmm...Perhaps the nobel prize winning economist Friedrich August von Hayek, who was there when hitler was coming into power can explain to you why hitler was a socialist...from 1933:

http://www.brookesnews.com/091910hayeknazis.html

From nobel prize winning economist Friedrich Hayek:


Nazism is Socialism*


Friedrich August von Hayek
BrookesNews.Com
Monday 19 October 2009 Published in the spring of 1933

The persecution of the Marxists, and of democrats in general, tends to obscure the fundamental fact that National "Socialism" is a genuine socialist movement, whose leading ideas are the final fruit of the anti-liberal tendencies which have been steadily gaining ground in Germany since the later part of the Bismarckian era, and which led the majority of the German intelligentsia first to "socialism of the chair" and later to Marxism in its social-democratic or communist form.

One of the main reasons why the socialist character of National Socialism has been quite generally unrecognized, is, no doubt, its alliance with the nationalist groups which represent the great industries and the great landowners. But this merely proves that these groups too, as they have since learnt to their bitter disappointment, have, at least partly, been mistaken as to the nature of the movement. But only partly because, and this is the most characteristic feature of modern Germany, many capitalists are themselves strongly influenced by socialistic ideas, and have not sufficient belief in capitalism to defend it with a clear conscience.


But, in spite of this, the German entrepreneur class have manifested almost incredible short-sightedness in allying themselves with a movement of whose strong anti-capitalistic tendencies there should never have been any doubt. A careful observer must always have been aware that the opposition of the Nazis to the established socialist parties, which gained them the sympathy of the entrepreneur, was only to a very small extent directed against their economic policy. What the Nazis mainly objected to was their internationalism and all the aspects of their cultural programme which were still influenced by liberal ideas. But the accusations against the social-democrats and the communists which were most effective in their propaganda were not so much directed against their programme as against their supposed practice — their corruption and nepotism, and even their alleged alliance with "the golden International of Jewish Capitalism."

******It would, indeed, hardly have been possible for the Nationalists to advance fundamental objections to the economic policy of the other socialist parties when their own published programme differed from these only in that its socialism was much cruder and less rational. The famous 25 points drawn up by Herr Feder, one of Hitler's early allies, repeatedly endorsed by Hitler and recognized by the by-laws of the National-Socialist party as the immutable basis of all its actions, which together with an extensive commentary is circulating throughout Germany in many hundreds of thousands of copies, is full of ideas resembling those of the early socialists.
But the dominant feature is a fierce hatred of anything capitalistic-individualistic profit seeking, large scale enterprise, banks, joint-stock companies, department stores, "international finance and loan capital," the system of "interest slavery" in general; the abolition of these is described as the "basis of the programme, around which everything else turns." It was to this programme that the masses of the German people, who were already completely under the influence of collectivist ideas, responded so enthusiastically.

*****
That this violent anti-capitalistic attack is genuine, and not a mere piece of propaganda, becomes as clear from the personal history of the intellectual leaders of the movement as from the general milieu from which it springs. It is not even denied that many of the young men who today play a prominent part in it have previously been communists or socialists.

 

[billc]

So please, Hitler was a lefty and a socialist regardless of what some on the study keep trying to say. I have 3 ph.d's in economics and another writer who has a ph.d. who all say hitler was a lefty and a socialist. You may not believe me but you should take what they say seriously, since Hayek and Mises were there at the start of Hitler and his national socialists.

 

[billc]

another view:

http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id9.html
HITLER WAS A SOCIALIST



John J. Ray (M.A.; Ph.D.)


The context of Nazism

"True, it is a fixed idea with the French that the Rhine is their property, but to this arrogant demand the only reply worthy of the German nation is Arndt's: "Give back Alsace and Lorraine". For I am of the opinion, perhaps in contrast to many whose standpoint I share in other respects, that the reconquest of the German-speaking left bank of the Rhine is a matter of national honour, and that the Germanisation of a disloyal Holland and of Belgium is a political necessity for us. Shall we let the German nationality be completely suppressed in these countries, while the Slavs are rising ever more powerfully in the East?"​

Have a look at the quote immediately above and say who wrote it. It is a typical Hitler rant, is it not? Give it to 100 people who know Hitler's speeches and 100 would identify it as something said by Adolf. The fierce German nationalism and territorial ambition is unmistakeable. And if there is any doubt, have a look at another quote from the same author:

This is our calling, that we shall become the templars of this Grail, gird the sword round our loins for its sake and stake our lives joyfully in the last, holy war which will be followed by the thousand-year reign of freedom.​

That settles it, doesn't it? Who does not know of Hitler's glorification of military sacrifice and his aim to establish a "thousand-year Reich"?

But neither quote is in fact from Hitler. Both quotes were written by Friedrich Engels, Karl Marx's co-author (See here and here). So let that be an introduction to the idea that Hitler not only called himself a socialist but that he WAS in fact a socialist by the standards of his day. Ideas that are now condemned as Rightist were in Hitler's day perfectly normal ideas among Leftists. And if Friedrich Engels was not a Leftist, I do not know who would be.

 

[granfire]

another view:

http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id9.html
HITLER WAS A SOCIALIST



John J. Ray (M.A.; Ph.D.)


The context of Nazism

"True, it is a fixed idea with the French that the Rhine is their property, but to this arrogant demand the only reply worthy of the German nation is Arndt's: "Give back Alsace and Lorraine". For I am of the opinion, perhaps in contrast to many whose standpoint I share in other respects, that the reconquest of the German-speaking left bank of the Rhine is a matter of national honour, and that the Germanisation of a disloyal Holland and of Belgium is a political necessity for us. Shall we let the German nationality be completely suppressed in these countries, while the Slavs are rising ever more powerfully in the East?"​

Have a look at the quote immediately above and say who wrote it. It is a typical Hitler rant, is it not? Give it to 100 people who know Hitler's speeches and 100 would identify it as something said by Adolf. The fierce German nationalism and territorial ambition is unmistakeable. And if there is any doubt, have a look at another quote from the same author:

This is our calling, that we shall become the templars of this Grail, gird the sword round our loins for its sake and stake our lives joyfully in the last, holy war which will be followed by the thousand-year reign of freedom.​

That settles it, doesn't it? Who does not know of Hitler's glorification of military sacrifice and his aim to establish a "thousand-year Reich"?

But neither quote is in fact from Hitler. Both quotes were written by Friedrich Engels, Karl Marx's co-author (See here and here). So let that be an introduction to the idea that Hitler not only called himself a socialist but that he WAS in fact a socialist by the standards of his day. Ideas that are now condemned as Rightist were in Hitler's day perfectly normal ideas among Leftists. And if Friedrich Engels was not a Leftist, I do not know who would be.

And again, you are spitting on the many graves left behind by Hitler's men, containing many socialists and Communists.

Increasing the fond size and bolding it STILL does not make it true.

Back under your bridge!

 

[billc]

First, you obviously did not attempt to read the paper by PH.D. John Ray because that is the font size for the Hitler was a socialist. Had you, you would have seen the enlarged font sized title and an indepth look at the national socialists, with an index at the bottom that makes it easier to get to the important points about national socialism and why people try to claim it isn't socialism.

Second, wow, don't argue your case because hitler, along with 12-15 million other people he murdered, also killed socialists, and it will make people feel bad. I didn't kill all those people, the socialist Hitler did. too many people falsely believe that hilter was not a socialist and the documents tha I have, written by several econoists point directly to the fact that hitler was a socialist. Try to argue the facts, and please don't try to silence my opinion with the deaths hitler caused.

 

[Empty Hands]

First, you obviously did not attempt to read the paper by PH.D. John Ray because that is the font size for the Hitler was a socialist.

I have a Ph.D. too. Why won't you listen to a damn thing I say?

 

[billc]

Because you are wrong.

 

[granfire]

I have a Ph.D. too. Why won't you listen to a damn thing I say?

I listen to you, Honey, and I don't even know what your PhD is about...

However, I have been exposed to a whole lot more of the Hitler than most of you guys (especially billi) worked on a piece about his life, at the time I had about 7 books about him on my nightstand, biographies and analysis of his life and works. And guess what: Not a single one said he was socialist. Using some of the tools, yes, but not in ideology.

Of course, to understand that you would have to know something about the society he sprung from.

So in a nutshell:
billi, you pull out a 'source' I tend to laugh first, then ignore: Your contributions are all along the same line, usually flawed beyond recognition, 100% bias.
Naturally, when you live so far on the right fringe to make a centrist look like a left wing anarchist, you have to worry about the neighborhood. But rest assure, the globe has not changed much in the last 80 years: What was right wing then is still on the right now.