Reading Parker's Infinite Insights

[mj-hi-yah]

I think that the Infinite Insights are a great place for some people to start. However, in time they will either realize that there are holes in the teachings or not. Those who don't continue on with the sam ting and those do, move on. Holding some value (more sentimental than anything) on the II series. I personally like some of the quotes that Mr. Parker had in them... Particularly the ones that tell people to continue to research and understand what he is telling them. Better understanding, I believe take a person to a finite set of rules and principles. Governed more by the laws of nature and physics then concept and theory, since these have no "real" laws applied or that are applicable.

In staying on topic with the Ifinite Insights.
If so many people have read and read these books so much and so thouroghly why are some people not using some of the tools shown and or taught?
Just curious....

Just curious myself about some things you've said here that seem a bit contradictory, please consider this...if you really believe what you say above about there being no "real" laws applied or applicable in II how can you be curious about people who read and read II but are not applying or using tools that are shown or taught within? Can or do real tools exist in II to be applied if they are merely comprised of concept and theory?

 

[Michael Billings]

Of note, a bunch of the newer Kenpo students have a very difficult time, and if they can find them, usually it is about a months worth of tuition to get them.

AND YES, I READ, RE-READ, and it seems that I find something new, or at least I see it in a different application, every time I read them. Usually I read them at least a couple of times a year, maybe three or four on slow years. We could count them by how many times read per decade now.

-Michael

 

[Rainman]

Just curious myself about some things you've said here that seem a bit contradictory, please consider this...if you really believe what you say above about there being no "real" laws applied or applicable in II how can you be curious about people who read and read II but are not applying or using tools that are shown or taught within? Can or do real tools exist in II to be applied if they are merely comprised of concept and theory?

There is no contradiction just a lack of understanding on your part on what Mr. Durgan is saying. Self defense techniques are conceptual... BOOK V. It does require some interpretation because principles are used in place of concepts. A theory that most teks use is zone cancellation. Controlling height, width and depth by pin point accuracy which is a sub cat of targeting, also one of the eight considerations... this gives us only a basis for real discussion if indeed all parties have the basics.

There are Laws- Universal laws that are to be used and understood but really most things are conceptual predicated by theory just the same as econ 101... You get the theory then you have to apply the theory by way of doing.

So to answer your last inquiry yes. Theory= leverage Concept=fulcrum BOOK V. Simple enough right? Not if you have not read the material and discussed how to use it with someone who can do it...

For neophytes I feel your pain- expensive and not readily available. Many teachers nowadays have expanded the language and have have their own encyclopedia of concepts theories and principles... They become more and more important as you progress and concepts theories and priciples eventually become the expression through physical manifestation... Meaning you are using something as simple as marriage of gravity to align muscles and skeleton thus enhancing power by way of directional harmony or structural alignment or whatever you choose to highlight in a particular movement.

Later on you may come to understand certain things work well in a particular order... every time with no varience. The only real trick is finding teachers that will help you find this info... And of course you may not need all this stuff- some people just want to learn to defend themselves and for that they need the how but not the why.

 

[sumdumguy]

Just curious myself about some things you've said here that seem a bit contradictory, please consider this...if you really believe what you say above about there being no "real" laws applied or applicable in II how can you be curious about people who read and read II but are not applying or using tools that are shown or taught within? Can or do real tools exist in II to be applied if they are merely comprised of concept and theory?

I didn't say there was nothing that was applicable, I said that some people eventually realize that the only real governing laws are universal laws (those of nature and physics). I also asked about "tools" not principles taught within the II because there are tools taught that can be used to further ones endeavours in the arts/kenpo. There is a difference between "tools" and "laws". I know your fairly new to this forum so I will tell you that the tools vs. principles argument has been done on other threads. Additionally you have to understand that I am not your average run of the mill Kenpo guy just plug'n along, therefore I have some different views and opinions... but that's all they are, just my views and opinions. That and 50 cents might get you a cup'o'joe at the nearest am/pm. Confrontation is my specialty, destruction my desire, not rank, glory, or money. Thanks..

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Rainman,



Thanks for your post. You're right it's all about trying to understand and I think it depends on your point of view – where you happen to be standing at the time, and what experience you bring with you. From my point of view, I’m seeking knowledge… read the books and understand and can relate to some/much of it, but I also have someone stretching my mind to question the scientific validity of some of these theories. I see value in II, but as I gain experience and deeper understanding, that understanding gives way to further questioning. Through questioning we learn to define and refine things for ourselves. It’s kind of funny because I don’t necessarily disagree with what Mr. Durgan is saying. I was interested in having him clarify his thoughts. In turn you’re helping me to clarify mine. In his first post it seemed he saw that people sometimes grow beyond II and those who do may find little value to hold onto there other than sentimental. In his second post he seemed to me to defend the value of the tools within. So at the same time I’m trying to decide for myself which things hold value for me. I suppose my question to him should have been, “Other than sentimental, what value does II hold for you in the place you are in today?”

There is no contradiction just a lack of understanding on your part on what Mr. Durgan is saying. Self defense techniques are conceptual... BOOK V.

I know that self defense techniques are by nature conceptual, being that they are based on "anticipated action"…Book V. Since we can not really anticipate someone’s actual actions and reactions in a fight they could not be otherwise. I understand the difference between theory and concept, but would not claim to understand the applications of all.

It does require some interpretation because principles are used in place of concepts. A theory that most teks use is zone cancellation. Controlling height, width and depth by pin point accuracy which is a sub cat of targeting, also one of the eight considerations... this gives us only a basis for real discussion if indeed all parties have the basics.

Agreed, and this is one I mostly grasp, and certainly more than I did at first.

There are Laws- Universal laws that are to be used and understood but really most things are conceptual predicated by theory just the same as econ 101... You get the theory then you have to apply the theory by way of doing.

I’m with you here…

So to answer your last inquiry yes. Theory= leverage Concept=fulcrum BOOK V. Simple enough right? Not if you have not read the material and discussed how to use it with someone who can do it...

Having a teacher who understands the applications is very important. My instructor is very skilled, but he is also always learning and refining too. One of the reasons this forum is great is that it serves as a vehicle for the exchange of ideas from different points of view.

Many teachers nowadays have expanded the language and have their own encyclopedia of concepts theories and principles... They become more and more important as you progress and concepts theories and principles eventually become the expression through physical manifestation... Meaning you are using something as simple as marriage of gravity to align muscles and skeleton thus enhancing power by way of directional harmony or structural alignment or whatever you choose to highlight in a particular movement.

This is where communication, seminars and forums such as these are so important. In exchanging ideas we learn from the experience of others.

Later on you may come to understand certain things work well in a particular order... every time with no variance.

I need to work on this.

The only real trick is finding teachers that will help you find this info

That’s why I’m here…so thanks…you all have a lot of experience and much to offer in this way, and I learn something each time I tune in.

... And of course you may not need all this stuff- some people just want to learn to defend themselves and for that they need the how but not the why.

I totally agree unless you are teaching. In this case I think it’s very important to stretch yourself and continue to always learn.



Respectfully,

MJ:asian:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I didn't say there was nothing that was applicable, I said that some people eventually realize that the only real governing laws are universal laws (those of nature and physics). I also asked about "tools" not principles taught within the II because there are tools taught that can be used to further ones endeavours in the arts/kenpo. There is a difference between "tools" and "laws". I know your fairly new to this forum so I will tell you that the tools vs. principles argument has been done on other threads.

Thanks for your clarification! I'll check out the tools vs. principles thread.

Additionally you have to understand that I am not your average run of the mill Kenpo guy just plug'n along, therefore I have some different views and opinions... but that's all they are, just my views and opinions. That and 50 cents might get you a cup'o'joe at the nearest am/pm. Confrontation is my specialty, destruction my desire, not rank, glory, or money. Thanks..

:ultracool I appreciate you for your divergent mode of thinking, and am interested in your point of view. If I wasn't, I wouldn't inquire. Following the provoking thoughts is how I prefer to learn.

Respectfully,
MJ:asian:

 

[sumdumguy]

You have a long kenpo journey ahead of you. The insights you gain here on the forum and seminars and such will mostly all be good for a while. Alas it does become more and more dissapointing later in your personal journey though. Enjoy your youth in Kenpo and absorb what you can. It is however, easy to be mis-led. Take it for what it's worth, nothing is gospel and nothing is forever....

I am but one person also closer to the beginning of my journey then the end, thus (sumdumguy). I don't have all the answers, (darn it!) but like yourself I am inquisitive and want to know. The Infinite Insights will defenitely help you along the way. There will come a time though, if you are truly continuing to evolve on a personal level, that you will come to some serious conclusions and... decisions will have to be made. Almost all of the things we do in life are stepping stones to other places, we just have to step on the right stones... lol
:asian:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

You have a long kenpo journey ahead of you. The insights you gain here on the forum and seminars and such will mostly all be good for a while. Alas it does become more and more dissapointing later in your personal journey though. Enjoy your youth in Kenpo and absorb what you can. It is however, easy to be mis-led. Take it for what it's worth, nothing is gospel and nothing is forever....

Oh, and I so wanted to earn those steak knives!

I am but one person also closer to the beginning of my journey then the end, thus (sumdumguy).

Might be time to change that name... The more you know the more you know you don't know ...that's a person who knows... how about? onesmartdude

I don't have all the answers, (darn it!) but like yourself I am inquisitive and want to know. The Infinite Insights will defenitely help you along the way. There will come a time though, if you are truly continuing to evolve on a personal level, that you will come to some serious conclusions and... decisions will have to be made. Almost all of the things we do in life are stepping stones to other places, we just have to step on the right stones...

Change, that's what makes the ride fun!
Think I'll look to step on some stones avoid the toes. Thanks :asian:

 

[Rainman]

I know that self defense techniques are by nature conceptual, being that they are based on "anticipated action"…Book V. Since we can not really anticipate someone’s actual actions and reactions in a fight they could not be otherwise. I understand the difference between theory and concept, but would not claim to understand the applications of all.

No not based on anticpated action... In the particular direction of that statement- the conditioned response (one of the earlier stages of subconscious action) would or should be thought of and anticpation should be axed if and only if you are anticipating your opponent. We are proactive that is for sure but we need to make sure we are on cadence with our opponent. An anticipated move allows you to be set up.

Of course EP used visualization with the statement of *remedy anticipated moves*. What he left out in this particular circumstance (but was also stated earlier) is zone cancellation. He is talking about your chess game MJ. So aniticipation in this circumstance is very large. Because you have already read about the quadrant zone theory you may base your response to an attack by playing zone defense. You may anticipate an attack by using the same response to all four zones with only a minor adjustment. You don't know what the attack is until the opponent shows you in some way or another. The conditioned response obtained with the 154 sd teks (along with your free fighting) will tell you where your opponent is going unless they have set you up- framed you- and/or are just have a better chess game.

So let me clean this up a little better... The anticipation is really in the execution of a flawless tek, meaning you have cancelled their zones and got the restraint, similated kill, created distance to get away, or threw them in some sort of fashion and the threat has been removed. We in AK don't anticipate what the other guy does... If we were to anticipate something it would be reactions from hitting targets on the most appropriate angle with enough power to create more targets (or open those targets for a specific sequence) and cancel height width and depth...

Thanks for giving me something to talk about MJ... You will make a fine Blackbelt.

 

[sumdumguy]

MJ-HI-YA
Thanks for your post. You're right it's all about trying to understand and I think it depends on your point of view – where you happen to be standing at the time, and what experience you bring with you. From my point of view, I’m seeking knowledge… read the books and understand and can relate to some/much of it, but I also have someone stretching my mind to question the scientific validity of some of these theories. I see value in II, but as I gain experience and deeper understanding, that understanding gives way to further questioning. Through questioning we learn to define and refine things for ourselves. It’s kind of funny because I don’t necessarily disagree with what Mr. Durgan is saying. I was interested in having him clarify his thoughts. In turn you’re helping me to clarify mine. In his first post it seemed he saw that people sometimes grow beyond II and those who do may find little value to hold onto there other than sentimental. In his second post he seemed to me to defend the value of the tools within. So at the same time I’m trying to decide for myself which things hold value for me. I suppose my question to him should have been, “Other than sentimental, what value does II hold for you in the place you are in today?”

MJ, this is a good question, must have missed it the first time. Since I still teach, on a commercial level to some degree.... I use them a lot for maintaining my commercial train of thought. (staying on the straight and narrow so to speak). As well, I do use them for some history lessons and some of the basic concept tools that are taught. I also use them as reference to the "commercial" art for analogies in teaching seminars to outside schools and camps (give the people something to relate to). The student, young and on their way to trying to better understand the Kenpo system does benefit from these writings, picking up some tools and concepts along the reading path. This also allows for greater inquisition from the student about such things as the "universal pattern" the "web of knowledge", "quadrant zone theories" and the like.
You see, It allows me to teach, and them to not just learn but... survey and formulate questions based on someone elses information so they are now gaining insights that I may not have shared with them had they not ventured out of their comfort zone. There are particulars neccessary for a student to understand that are not taught within the construct of the II. The student will not gain the knowledge of these things by simply reading and applying this information. Incidently their are enough "know it alls" in the world thanks but no thanks on the diff nick.
:idunno:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Originally posted by Rainman - No not based on anticipated action... In the particular direction of that statement- the conditioned response (one of the earlier stages of subconscious action) would or should be thought of and anticipation should be axed if and only if you are anticipating your opponent. We are proactive that is for sure but we need to make sure we are on cadence with our opponent. An anticipated move allows you to be set up.

Hmmm… let’s see if I understand you. I think you are trying to say that you can not have a spontaneous conditioned response if you are involved in anticipation. I do understand that anticipation does involve some thought which makes it a mindful act, and is not a product of a conditioned response from training the sds and sparring experience. But I am uncertain of how to play chess without the use of anticipation. If I anticipate a move from my opponent based on their actions and act on that I agree that it is possible that I’ve been set up and can fall victim to their conditioning a response in me.

Check Mate.:mp5:

Of course EP used visualization with the statement of *remedy anticipated moves*. What he left out in this particular circumstance (but was also stated earlier) is zone cancellation. He is talking about your chess game MJ. So anticipation in this circumstance is very large. Because you have already read about the quadrant zone theory you may base your response to an attack by playing zone defense. You may anticipate an attack by using the same response to all four zones with only a minor adjustment. You don't know what the attack is until the opponent shows you in some way or another. The conditioned response obtained with the 154 sd teks (along with your free fighting) will tell you where your opponent is going unless they have set you up- framed you- and/or are just have a better chess game.

I have read the quadrant zone theory and mostly see this just a couple of questions…I’ve experienced this in sparring, my conditioned response will tell me where to go and amazingly does, but what about telegraphing? Trying to read an opponent can be dangerous, as you say if their chess game is better, because it can be a set-up, but when you learn to read your opponent and begin to see when they are unintentionally telegraphing their intentions (a shift in body weight, stance change, pulling back a punch etc.,) can’t this lead to your anticipating their next move? Or do you see reacting to telegraphing as being part of your conditioned response as well?

So let me clean this up a little better... The anticipation is really in the execution of a flawless tek, meaning you have cancelled their zones and got the restraint, simulated kill, created distance to get away, or threw them in some sort of fashion and the threat has been removed. We in AK don't anticipate what the other guy does... If we were to anticipate something it would be reactions from hitting targets on the most appropriate angle with enough power to create more targets (or open those targets for a specific sequence) and cancel height width and depth...

Ok I think I see where you’re going here…So I can anticipate the execution of a flawless technique, and the reactions it should create under perfect conditions, but we can not predict what our opponent will do…ok and I think this is what I was trying to say in the earlier post, but the word anticipation must have been a poor choice of words there.

Thanks for giving me something to talk about MJ... You will make a fine Blackbelt.

No really thank you for sharing, and you gave me a lot to think about today! Thanks for the compliment too. I hope you’re right, because to me it is about giving back and what I care most about in terms of being a black belt is being a good teacher. That’s really why I’m here bugging all you Kenpo dudes.:asian:

__________________

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Originally posted by sumdumguy - The student, young and on their way to trying to better understand the Kenpo system does benefit from these writings, picking up some tools and concepts along the reading path. This also allows for greater inquisition from the student about such things as the "universal pattern" the "web of knowledge", "quadrant zone theories" and the like. You see, It allows me to teach, and them to not just learn but... survey and formulate questions based on someone elses information so they are now gaining insights that I may not have shared with them had they not ventured out of their comfort zone. There are particulars neccessary for a student to understand that are not taught within the construct of the II. The student will not gain the knowledge of these things by simply reading and applying this information.

Yes this is a great answer. You have lucky students. You have to start with some basis, then later on you're ready for freefalling.

Incidently their are enough "know it alls" in the world thanks but no thanks on the diff nick. :idunno:

Fair enough, saying sumdumbguy is much more fun anyway! :boing2:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Doc,

A friend pointed you out to me in II. :ultracool In case anyone else is curious Volume 5 page 153 Ouch Doc..why'd you let that guy do that to you? Or Volume 4 page 28 - the tall handsome fellow ...no trying Falling Falcon on you!

MJ

 

[dubljay]

Shamefull I know, but i haven't read any of them. Partly because its very difficult to find them, and my instructor keeps his pretty well guarded... not left out too often because one was already torn up and had to be replaced.I plan on buying the full set when I get the money.

-Josh-

 

[cdhall]

I know they can be hard to find, but FYI, there is a set on eBay right now but I don't know anything about the seller.

There is someone selling a lot of videos on eBay who I am very suspicious of though. Especially because I noticed that they have either begun a new seller account or have two accounts. I would not be surprised that they had an older account cancelled or some really ugly feedback.

Someone on here may know a reputable source for the books though, out of print as they may be right now. Good luck.

 

[dubljay]

Yes I have seen them on ebay, however my ebay experiences have been less than positive, however I have started to tap into resources that are very good at finding books, hopefully something will turn up.


-Josh-

 

[cdhall]

Good luck then. My eBay experiences have been mostly positive, even the one with the above person I am now more suspicious of.

Good to make your own, reliable network. That is my reccomendation. If I find any of the books for sale, I'll post here. I do know someone whose set is in almost pristine condition. I wonder if they don't want them anymore? I think you are right, they are very, very scarce now. I should have had one of mine signed. I think I had a chance once.

Ah well. They are good references for many reasons. Good luck again.

 

[cdhall]

This is supposedly a NEW copy of Book II. I don't know how, I'll ask the seller, but FYI.

Does anyone know if they are being reprinted somewhere? Officially? I am assuming this book is in "New Condition." I can post here what I find out.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16044&item=3682992434&rd=1

 

[Ceicei]

This is supposedly a NEW copy of Book II. I don't know how, I'll ask the seller, but FYI.

Does anyone know if they are being reprinted somewhere? Officially? I am assuming this book is in "New Condition." I can post here what I find out.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16044&item=3682992434&rd=1

If it's new, it probably means that it simply never was read. There have been people who bought in bulk years ago (usually instructors), but haven't been able to deplete their stock. I don't think there are going to be any reprints of these books made. That means it will become harder and harder to find a complete set.

- Ceicei

 

[Goldendragon7]

I don't think there are going to be any reprints of these books made.
- Ceicei

No, that is not correct. The Ed Parker books are all available again.

I have Infinite Insights 1, 2, 4, 5, and the Encyclopedia available. (3 is on backorder for now should be in soon)