Reactive Defence Techniques

[chasman]

I learnt a street style Kenpo in my late teens but never had reason to use it in anger and haven't practised in years. I'm now I'm in my 50s, overweight and have dodgy knees. If you ask me to do a break-fall I'll probably break my neck instead.

I'd like to learn an efficient, effective method of self-defence against street threats. In these days of ubiquitous surveillance and unpredictable juries, I feel it is important the attack should be initiated by the aggressor. Passive defence? Reactive defence? I'm particularly interested in subtlety and minimalism. Pressure points rather than punches and kicks. Slipping and parrying in preference to brutal blocking. I like joint locks and disarms...

This forum claims to be friendly... now we'll see

 

[drop bear]

Jits.

 

[hoshin1600]

Jits.

if the OP is asking for recommendations for an art he may not understand your short hand.

 

[hoshin1600]

I learnt a street style Kenpo in my late teens but never had reason to use it in anger and haven't practised in years. I'm now I'm in my 50s, overweight and have dodgy knees. If you ask me to do a break-fall I'll probably break my neck instead.

I'd like to learn an efficient, effective method of self-defence against street threats. In these days of ubiquitous surveillance and unpredictable juries, I feel it is important the attack should be initiated by the aggressor. Passive defence? Reactive defence? I'm particularly interested in subtlety and minimalism. Pressure points rather than punches and kicks. Slipping and parrying in preference to brutal blocking. I like joint locks and disarms...

This forum claims to be friendly... now we'll see

hey chaseman welcome to MT.
you are asking a question that everyone asks when they are looking for an art to train in. you post offers two variable restrictions.. one your not in great shape and two you feel the legal pressure to learn something that is not aggressive. i would advise you to not think too much about either of those factors. for starters once you get into training your fitness level should go up and for the legal issue while it may be a concern for you, if you really dig into the topic you will find your concern is unfounded. there have been many threads about martial arts and the law of self defense here. i would suggest you do a search and do some reading. it might alleviate some of your reservations.
after that just find a school near you that you like the teacher and the environment and enjoy yourself.

 

[drop bear]

if the OP is asking for recommendations for an art he may not understand your short hand.

Sorry.

The jujitsu.

 

[oftheherd1]

I learnt a street style Kenpo in my late teens but never had reason to use it in anger and haven't practised in years. I'm now I'm in my 50s, overweight and have dodgy knees. If you ask me to do a break-fall I'll probably break my neck instead.

I'd like to learn an efficient, effective method of self-defence against street threats. In these days of ubiquitous surveillance and unpredictable juries, I feel it is important the attack should be initiated by the aggressor. Passive defence? Reactive defence? I'm particularly interested in subtlety and minimalism. Pressure points rather than punches and kicks. Slipping and parrying in preference to brutal blocking. I like joint locks and disarms...

This forum claims to be friendly... now we'll see

Some styles of Karate do what you are asking for. Aikido and Hapkido certainly do as well. Traditional Judo and Jujitsu should as well, but I don't know how much they teach pressure points. Read up on them as hoshin1600 says and find a teacher and school you like. BJJ is somewhat popular mostly I think because of MMA. I've never studied it so I can't be certain, but is seems they are too quick to want to go to the ground.

 

[frank raud]

I would not recommend relying on pressure points for self defense. Too many variables make them unreliable, and if that's all you got, what do you have?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I learnt a street style Kenpo in my late teens but never had reason to use it in anger and haven't practised in years. I'm now I'm in my 50s, overweight and have dodgy knees. If you ask me to do a break-fall I'll probably break my neck instead.

I'd like to learn an efficient, effective method of self-defence against street threats. In these days of ubiquitous surveillance and unpredictable juries, I feel it is important the attack should be initiated by the aggressor. Passive defence? Reactive defence? I'm particularly interested in subtlety and minimalism. Pressure points rather than punches and kicks. Slipping and parrying in preference to brutal blocking. I like joint locks and disarms...

This forum claims to be friendly... now we'll see

A few thoughts to feed into your decision-making...

• A good system should have both reactive and proactive tools. It's legally preferable (in a general sense - nothing absolute in that) to wait until the other person attacks, but not always a good decision. You'll want to have both sets of tools. I don't have a favorable view of systems that are only reactive - they normally don't even have the tools to re-initiate movement if the attack stalls.
• You need strikes, in my opinion. I'm primarily a grappler (standing mostly, groundwork when I absolutely must), and grappling is easier when you have solid striking tools to supplement it.
• Pressure points are unreliable. If they don't feel the pain, the point rarely has any effect. All of us who have trained pressure points have run into at least one person who didn't sufficiently feel each point.
• Most styles/systems are capable of being used reactively. If you were to look at boxing (the system that comes to mind as least fitting your description), for instance, a good defensive boxing approach exists, and counter-punching fits your needs.

If you want to get into joint locks, you're almost certainly going to get into throws, too. As far as doing falls, look for a school that throws more gently (at least especially for the lower ranks). There's a wide range out there, and it varies more by school than by art, in my experience.

 

[ShortBridge]

What is available in your area?

 

[chasman]

Jiu Jitsu, Aikido and Wing Chun are all local to me.

To refine my original question, it's not really about who hits first, it's about appearances.

If your reaction to someone else's aggression is to take up a stance:

1) You are inviting, arguably even consenting, to violence.
2) Tipping off the aggressor you've had at least some training.
3) Making him look a chicken in front of his buddies if he backs down, meaning violence is almost inevitable.
4) Looking less sympathetic to a jury.

Ideally, I want to have both arms in front of me, open palms in a placatory gesture. I know someone is going to say that's a red rag to a bully and I get that, but the footage will be 100% on my side, assuming I win if it kicks off. I'm going to be pointing out the cameras so he knows it will look bad...

 

[ShortBridge]

Why don't you visit and perhaps try each of those things? They are all rather different, but any of them COULD be what you are looking for. Ask questions, how they are taught can be almost as important as what they are.

And let us know where you land.

 

[oftheherd1]

I would not recommend relying on pressure points for self defense. Too many variables make them unreliable, and if that's all you got, what do you have?

A few thoughts to feed into your decision-making...

• A good system should have both reactive and proactive tools. It's legally preferable (in a general sense - nothing absolute in that) to wait until the other person attacks, but not always a good decision. You'll want to have both sets of tools. I don't have a favorable view of systems that are only reactive - they normally don't even have the tools to re-initiate movement if the attack stalls.
• You need strikes, in my opinion. I'm primarily a grappler (standing mostly, groundwork when I absolutely must), and grappling is easier when you have solid striking tools to supplement it.
• Pressure points are unreliable. If they don't feel the pain, the point rarely has any effect. All of us who have trained pressure points have run into at least one person who didn't sufficiently feel each point.
• Most styles/systems are capable of being used reactively. If you were to look at boxing (the system that comes to mind as least fitting your description), for instance, a good defensive boxing approach exists, and counter-punching fits your needs.

If you want to get into joint locks, you're almost certainly going to get into throws, too. As far as doing falls, look for a school that throws more gently (at least especially for the lower ranks). There's a wide range out there, and it varies more by school than by art, in my experience.

I would not recommend relying on pressure points for self defense. Too many variables make them unreliable, and if that's all you got, what do you have?

My experience is that most people react to pressure points if they are applied correctly. That is the key. For those few who may not, just be sure you have a backup plan, something to transition to.

FYI, the Hapkido I studied generally used pressure points as an assist. One of our early wrist grab defenses is to swing the wrist down and back over the opponents arm, while activating the pressure point in the outer elbow. The grabbed arm is then slid under the opponent's arm while we step through and behind the opponent, putting the opponent in an arm lock grabbing the clothing, and pulling back on the head by pulling the opponent's hair or forehead. Might sound complicated, but in fact is really isn't. And it flows quite smoothly with the aid of the pressure point.

I believe it is Isshin Rhu Okinawan Karate that also uses pressure points, including some that will drop you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My experience is that most people react to pressure points if they are applied correctly. That is the key. For those few who may not, just be sure you have a backup plan, something to transition to.

FYI, the Hapkido I studied generally used pressure points as an assist. One of our early wrist grab defenses is to swing the wrist down and back over the opponents arm, while activating the pressure point in the outer elbow. The grabbed arm is then slid under the opponent's arm while we step through and behind the opponent, putting the opponent in an arm lock grabbing the clothing, and pulling back on the head by pulling the opponent's hair or forehead. Might sound complicated, but in fact is really isn't. And it flows quite smoothly with the aid of the pressure point.

I believe it is Isshin Rhu Okinawan Karate that also uses pressure points, including some that will drop you.

NGA uses pressure points intermittently, and I use them fairly extensively in my approach. In the dojo, they generally do pretty well until you run into someone they don't work on. When they work (as you suggested) they are a great assist - so long as you're prepared to complete without them, rather than depending upon the pressure point reaction to fuel the technique.

My main problem with them is that they are less reliable if someone is adrenaline-loaded or on drugs - the situations where we need our best responses. So, I use them as if they won't work. When they do, the technique just gets easier.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I would not recommend relying on pressure points for self defense. Too many variables make them unreliable, and if that's all you got, what do you have?

This is true.
In my experience, everybody has at least a couple pressure points that just don't work on them, mostly due to anatomical variation.
And pressure point techniques are difficult, advanced skills. They require a degree of precision and control that VERY few people are going to have without an awful lot of practice.

 

[frank raud]

Jiu Jitsu, Aikido and Wing Chun are all local to me.

To refine my original question, it's not really about who hits first, it's about appearances.

If your reaction to someone else's aggression is to take up a stance:

1) You are inviting, arguably even consenting, to violence.
2) Tipping off the aggressor you've had at least some training.
3) Making him look a chicken in front of his buddies if he backs down, meaning violence is almost inevitable.
4) Looking less sympathetic to a jury.

Ideally, I want to have both arms in front of me, open palms in a placatory gesture. I know someone is going to say that's a red rag to a bully and I get that, but the footage will be 100% on my side, assuming I win if it kicks off. I'm going to be pointing out the cameras so he knows it will look bad...

Geoff Thompson is credited with coining the phrase, the Fence, which is pretty much what you describe. Once things kick off, if they do, how you follow up will depend on your training and preferences. The fence can work with any of the arts you mention as being local to you.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Jiu Jitsu, Aikido and Wing Chun are all local to me.

To refine my original question, it's not really about who hits first, it's about appearances.

If your reaction to someone else's aggression is to take up a stance:

1) You are inviting, arguably even consenting, to violence.
2) Tipping off the aggressor you've had at least some training.
3) Making him look a chicken in front of his buddies if he backs down, meaning violence is almost inevitable.
4) Looking less sympathetic to a jury.

Ideally, I want to have both arms in front of me, open palms in a placatory gesture. I know someone is going to say that's a red rag to a bully and I get that, but the footage will be 100% on my side, assuming I win if it kicks off. I'm going to be pointing out the cameras so he knows it will look bad...

Ummmmm..... what you're describing is taking a stance, which you just said was a Bad Thing (tm). It's also the position I most commonly start with in confrontations with violent people in our ER.

 

[frank raud]

My experience is that most people react to pressure points if they are applied correctly. That is the key. For those few who may not, just be sure you have a backup plan, something to transition to.

FYI, the Hapkido I studied generally used pressure points as an assist. One of our early wrist grab defenses is to swing the wrist down and back over the opponents arm, while activating the pressure point in the outer elbow. The grabbed arm is then slid under the opponent's arm while we step through and behind the opponent, putting the opponent in an arm lock grabbing the clothing, and pulling back on the head by pulling the opponent's hair or forehead. Might sound complicated, but in fact is really isn't. And it flows quite smoothly with the aid of the pressure point.
.

So....you are saying that you can't depend on pressure points and better have an alternative because they aren't always reliable?

 

[Dirty Dog]

So....you are saying that you can't depend on pressure points and better have an alternative because they aren't always reliable?

I'd go so far as to say everything we do is unreliable to some extent, and you should always have a backup plan. No strike, throw, grapple, gunshot, etc is 100%.

 

[Anarax]

I learnt a street style Kenpo in my late teens but never had reason to use it in anger and haven't practised in years. I'm now I'm in my 50s, overweight and have dodgy knees. If you ask me to do a break-fall I'll probably break my neck instead.

I'd like to learn an efficient, effective method of self-defence against street threats. In these days of ubiquitous surveillance and unpredictable juries, I feel it is important the attack should be initiated by the aggressor. Passive defence? Reactive defence? I'm particularly interested in subtlety and minimalism. Pressure points rather than punches and kicks. Slipping and parrying in preference to brutal blocking. I like joint locks and disarms...

This forum claims to be friendly... now we'll see

Filipino Martial Arts(Kali, Escrima, Arnis) matches the criteria you speak of. Panatukan, the empty handed portion of FMA, teaches slips, parries, locks, throws, chokes, sweeps, etc. Defanging the snake is an important concept in FMA, essentially it's an aggressive defense. One example of defanging is parrying and opponents punch into your elbow, injuring his fist. From an onlookers perspective the puncher is the aggressive and the other guy was only defending himself. Aikijutsu sounds like something else you might be interested in.

 

[jobo]

Jiu Jitsu, Aikido and Wing Chun are all local to me.

To refine my original question, it's not really about who hits first, it's about appearances.

If your reaction to someone else's aggression is to take up a stance:

1) You are inviting, arguably even consenting, to violence.
2) Tipping off the aggressor you've had at least some training.
3) Making him look a chicken in front of his buddies if he backs down, meaning violence is almost inevitable.
4) Looking less sympathetic to a jury.

Ideally, I want to have both arms in front of me, open palms in a placatory gesture. I know someone is going to say that's a red rag to a bully and I get that, but the footage will be 100% on my side, assuming I win if it kicks off. I'm going to be pointing out the cameras so he knows it will look bad...

stances are for the reasons you state a poor idea, and worse far worse than that most of them look silly, the up side is the other guy will be to busy laughing at you to attack.

stances are not mean to be held, they are a position to transitions into and through as the attack happens, you can go from you arms out, " don't want no trouble" stance, in to a stable ready pose and into action in less than a second