Rank based on progress vs. merit, and/or when to switch

[Flying Crane]

But you do need to attach it when you're doing Keumgang. The suggestion in the form is that they are together. It's impossible to view it on its own when watching someone do Keumgang, unless you only see them from the shoulder up. Otherwise, you see the down block as well.

I don’t believe that you do. But that’s my take on it.

So I don’t know what else to say. I and some others have tried to give you some perspective to work with, but it seems they aren’t sitting well with you.

So there are some other possibilities. One is that a method that uses forms is just not a good match for you and you ought to train in a different system. I say that all the time: any given system isn’t a good match for every person.

Another possibility is that TKD forms are garbage and not worth practicing.

Another possibility is that you received poor instruction.

Another possibility is that you haven’t worked hard enough and applied yourself to the training.

I can’t pass judgement and determine which of these, or something else, it may be. It may be that you ought to think about this part of the issue: you aren't satisfied with the answers you're getting, and this is a theme that has been going on for a while, so what do you do about it? Do you keep doing what you have been doing, in spite of the fact that it is unsatisfying? Do you look for a way to change? Do you have some possibly tough discussions with your teacher? Do you look for a new teacher and/or a new system?

For what it is worth, I have abandoned more than one system that I had dedicated years to, when I realize they weren’t the right thing for me.

Think it over.

 

[skribs]

I don’t believe that you do. But that’s my take on it.

If you don't, then you'll lose points in a competition, or fail your belt test.

Another possibility is that TKD forms are garbage and not worth practicing.

Another possibility is that you received poor instruction.

Another possibility is that you haven’t worked hard enough and applied yourself to the training.

As I said, I don't have any problem with the forms themselves. I see their use. I just don't see their use as a direct 1-to-1 from form to fighting. That doesn't mean they're useless. However, if they are being taught as a fighting template, that's when I have an issue.

 

[_Simon_]

I always find these conversations interesting. I am learning more and more, how bunkai has been left out of training.

I was watching a video by Sensei Seth ( a shotokan guy) and he stated that his training consisted of forms, and sparring, but no applications. I was surprised by this statement as he is very popular.

A quick question for the Karate guys, with the Pinans...do any of you do the two man exercises from this set of Kata?

No we never did the two man exercises for the Pinans, Graywalker. Then again we never/rarely did bunkai XD

 

[dvcochran]

Those blocks I have no problem with. Where I start to have issue is at the advanced form. I've heard a lot of times that the advanced level is where you stop learning techniques, and start learning application. But my experience with Taekwondo is at the advanced level, you keep learning techniques, they're just more complicated techniques with less practical application.

I cannot speak to what you have 'heard'. Like I said earlier, I hope you have been given the correct information and continue to process it into something meaningful. It seems that right now you are looking at everything through a very narrow lens. Maybe a little too broad for you but there is Everything you need in forms, unless you are looking for pure competition.

Uh...how is that "basic?" You're blocking two attacks on complete opposite corners. It makes 0 sense to me in a real-world setting. The explanation I usually hear is "blocking 2 attacks from 2 enemies", which leads me into my 2nd requirement - that the application make sense.

Again, I guess you could put this in the 'what if' category but what if you Do have to fight two people? Been there, done that.

I can easily see the application for each of those moves. But the timing in the form suggests they should be done all at once. If my opponent goes for a leg kick, body kick, head punch combo, then crane stance, down block, high block is an effective dodging/blocking strategy. But done all at once, as in the form, it makes no sense.

I have always thought of it as being attacked by two people.

I'll agree that scissor motions are great for disarms. However, in my experience it's usually a rolling motion instead of a crossing motion (i.e. block, hook, roll instead of crossing). The times we use a scissor motion for a disarm it's a scissor with the hands, instead of the arms.

I also see similar principles in the scissors block as in one of our blocks at blue belt. It doesn't have a name in our school, but I call it the side cross block. One arm protects your ribs and side, the other arm protects your face and neck. It's useful against roundhouse kicks. You can also snap your hands shut like an alligator's mouth and catch the leg real easy (if you go outside the realm of KKW sparring). Where I see similarity between the scissor block is in lining up the elbows between the down block and the higher block. But it's a completely different motion.

I say this to say that I see how the principles can be learned. I just don't see how the exact technique can be used.

You may not be taught this way but an effective scissors block/disarm is a square motion where left fist meets right bicep and vice/versa. A snapping motion using the wrist/lower forearm for the break/disarm. Would I do it with my feet together? Probably not. But great for coordination and balance.

Three problems with this:

1. The double-knife hand block, as done in TKD forms, is a lateral movement. The right hand block isn't coming down. It's coming straight in.
2. If I'm going to trap their hand down, I'll either want my palm facing in (to trap against my body) or down (to help feel his movement and zone him out). I don't see any reason to do that with the palm up, as the form would suggest.
3. Your right arm is going to get in your own way if you're going for that RNC. If you get your right arm out of the way, then you've lost control over their arm.

I think there is a difference in learning here. What is the trajectory of the arms when you do this block? In JMA and Okinawan styles it is a very linear motion. In most TKD and CMA I have seen it is much more circular. The thought is that the circular motion of the bent arm will 'catch' more in its path. This makes sense to me. Remember the two arms work in unison (there is no yin/yang here) so the inside arm (stomach) is positioned perfectly to trap a hand/foot OR push a punch/kick up. This is why the hand is up.

Exactly my point. I'm not at all saying that forms are bad. I'm saying the techniques, as done in the forms are done for aesthetics and body mechanics. The body mechanics are certainly useful. But to do the techniques as they are in the forms is folly.

My suggestion it to try to Not look at a form as individual components and absolutes. Like Wab25 said, they are a training tool, many created a long time ago so people could train on their own. Have we moved ahead and have better training tools and ways to train? Yes, some of us. Regardless, if you do one without the other there will always be gaps in the training.
There is a Lot of beautiful and cool stuff in forms. You want to call me a romantic go ahead, I am good with that. I suspect one day you will be in the same place.

 

[Flying Crane]

If you don't, then you'll lose points in a competition, or fail your belt test.

That is moot for me, I don’t compete, we don’t use belts, and my only interest is how I might apply it. So my interpretation of the movement is all that matters.

As I said, I don't have any problem with the forms themselves. I see their use. I just don't see their use as a direct 1-to-1 from form to fighting. That doesn't mean they're useless. However, if they are being taught as a fighting template, that's when I have an issue.

Well, mileage may differ for different people.

 

[Graywalker]

Still amazed that folks think there are n

No we never did the two man exercises for the Pinans, Graywalker. Then again we never/rarely did bunkai XD

Yeah, from what it looks like, not many understand their use. Sad state of affairs for Karate Ka.

 

[skribs]

That is moot for me, I don’t compete, we don’t use belts, and my only interest is how I might apply it. So my interpretation of the movement is all that matters.

That's not the story for TKD.

 

[skribs]

Again, I guess you could put this in the 'what if' category but what if you Do have to fight two people? Been there, done that.

This is where it satisfies my first requirement (that it has an application), but not the second (the application should make sense). This implies that you are between two opponents, with one of them attacking from behind. That's the absolute worst spot you can be in a 2-on-1 encounter. It would be much better to use your feet to put distance between you and one of the opponents, so you only have to block the one.

I have always thought of it as being attacked by two people.

This has the same issue as above (standing between two opponents), but has the added problem that now you're blocking a low and a high attack while standing on one leg. Seems it would be quite easy for those attacks to topple you over.

I think there is a difference in learning here. What is the trajectory of the arms when you do this block? In JMA and Okinawan styles it is a very linear motion. In most TKD and CMA I have seen it is much more circular. The thought is that the circular motion of the bent arm will 'catch' more in its path. This makes sense to me. Remember the two arms work in unison (there is no yin/yang here) so the inside arm (stomach) is positioned perfectly to trap a hand/foot OR push a punch/kick up. This is why the hand is up.

In both of the KKW schools I've been to, it's been a linear motion. Same with every video I've watched for the Taegeuks or Koryo.

 

[Flying Crane]

That's not the story for TKD.

Clearly that is true for a lot of people in TKD. But it doesn’t have to be that way if you don’t want it to be, at least for yourself.

If you love TKD but want to follow a different path with it, there are schools out there that can take you down that road. Not all TKD is about competition and being part of a big organization. There are still schools that focus on the older combative methods, don’t bother with Olympic style competition, and either belong to a smaller org or none at all. Those schools would be more likely to have a bead on the application interpretation of TKD poomsae.

 

[Graywalker]

No we never did the two man exercises for the Pinans, Graywalker. Then again we never/rarely did bunkai XD

Take a look at this video, this is back in 86-87, this is the 2 man application for Pinan Shodan. Well, the first 2 drills, there is a third.

Wrong vid but Nifanchi is another good example.

 

[dvcochran]

This is where it satisfies my first requirement (that it has an application), but not the second (the application should make sense). This implies that you are between two opponents, with one of them attacking from behind. That's the absolute worst spot you can be in a 2-on-1 encounter. It would be much better to use your feet to put distance between you and one of the opponents, so you only have to block the one.

This has the same issue as above (standing between two opponents), but has the added problem that now you're blocking a low and a high attack while standing on one leg. Seems it would be quite easy for those attacks to topple you over.

Oh, I fully agree, it is a sucky position to be in. You can say 'it should not happen' but sheet happens in the real world. I have been in it twice, once by my own cocky fault and once by the attackers design. I came really, really close to being stabbed the second time. But it is a reality and something worth being prepared for.

In both of the KKW schools I've been to, it's been a linear motion. Same with every video I've watched for the Taegeuks or Koryo.

This is why I said a difference in teaching. Believe it or not but all KKW schools do Not teach the same. Hell I have been to sanctioned tournaments where the licensed Korean judges were arguing about what was correct. Actually attended a drummed up back room meeting during an active tournament where to Korean Masters locked up. A most bizarre thing. When it was over (essentially a submission) both of them returned to the tournament as if nothing had happened. But you could not ignore the juicy swollen eye one of them had.
And the majority of schools I think still have some other background influence. In my case MDK. There are quite a few TKD derivatives I have always felt you underestimate or at least do not acknowledge. And remember, KKW is an attempt at an amalgamation of the major styles.

 

[dvcochran]

As I said, I don't have any problem with the forms themselves. I see their use. I just don't see their use as a direct 1-to-1 from form to fighting. That doesn't mean they're useless. However, if they are being taught as a fighting template, that's when I have an issue.

Have you actually had people tell you there is a 1 to 1 relationship. If so I would say that is some koolaid. BUT I fully believe the old saying is true; someone good at fighting will not necessarily be good at forms and some good at forms will be good at fighting. Do not mistake the generic term 'fighting' for only KKW sparring.

 

[skribs]

If you love TKD but want to follow a different path with it, there are schools out there that can take you down that road. Not all TKD is about competition and being part of a big organization. There are still schools that focus on the older combative methods, don’t bother with Olympic style competition, and either belong to a smaller org or none at all. Those schools would be more likely to have a bead on the application interpretation of TKD poomsae.

I've considered that. But to be perfectly honest, if I'm going to do that, I'd just get rid of the forms entirely. And I'd change my sparring rules (and training) to be more generalist than focus on WT sparring. At that point, 2/3 of what I teach would be thrown out the window, and what's left is basically kickboxing (without any kickboxing experience) and some hapkido. By this point, I should be 1st Dan in Hapkido...not really master level.

So if I do decide to drop TKD, I'm going to have to start something else and become proficient in that before I open my own school. I have strongly considered this. I've also considered learning something else before opening my TKD school (so I have more perspectives first). I've also considered never opening a school; maybe I find a school in another art that suits my teaching style better, and I just work under the owner of that school.

A lot of unknowns for me at this point.

Have you actually had people tell you there is a 1 to 1 relationship. If so I would say that is some koolaid. BUT I fully believe the old saying is true; someone good at fighting will not necessarily be good at forms and some good at forms will be good at fighting. Do not mistake the generic term 'fighting' for only KKW sparring.

I've had you tell me before that you've used the techniques exactly as in the forms.

 

[dvcochran]

I've had you tell me before that you've used the techniques exactly as in the forms.

And as I have said, and as many others have said, we have and do. That is so very far away for a 1 to 1 relationship it is astonishing. It is times like these you make me wonder if you really will get there or just be another statistic. I do not know anyone who has tried to force it and rush it like you are doing that ever get there. I sincerely hope you look back on these times one day and have a good laugh at yourself.

It is funny how you avoid a direct question and then freely offer up the answers to others later in a post. I have directly asked you about your school and teacher a number of times and you are always very aloof. Like there is some 'ancient Chinese secrest' you have to hide, then turn around and call BS on others for things you do not understand. That is being a bit of a bigot.

Look man, I don't care how much you like me if at all, but surely you understand I am just trying to help. Has your MA journey with your Master always been warm and fuzzy? Gosh I hope not. I push, pull, I do whatever I have to in an effort to help someone move forward. That is what instructors do. It is not about counting the loudest and holding people to ridiculous minute criteria every minute of every class. It is NOT do as I say, not as I do. It is NOT about looking the most accomplished all the time. It is about not being too big to be intimate with each and every student and learning how they tick. Learning what makes their heart beat faster and why. And learning within yourself how to use that information to help them get better.
It is not for everyone and I will tell you straight up, right now I think your intentions are misguided. You are in it for the glamor or perceived rank and for being an instructor/school owner. I suspect this isn't all your fault. I suspect your school/organization has programmed you toward these inclinations somewhat. They dangling carrot.
But you are a smart guy and have dipped your toe outside these parameters just enough to understand there is more to it. It is a big reason why some of my answers to you are vague. I am not going to spoon feed you, which you seem to want most of the time. So my best suggestion to you is to either get in or get out. If your school/instructor has any character at he/she will understand if you seek and workout elsewhere while still training there. Else you have the answers to many of your questions. If you are not certain you want to face the answers then stay and get deeply root where you are and enjoy the ride.

And I will add this; wouldn't it make All of your training work much better if you started looking for how it all compliments each other instead of how everything is very separated and disjointed? This is advanced thinking I feel at your rank you should be realizing. Oops, I guess I just spoon fed you.

 

[skribs]

That is so very far away for a 1 to 1 relationship it is astonishing.

Do you not understand what the word "exactly" means?

If it's "exact" it's 1-to-1. If it's not exact, then it's not 1-to-1.

It is funny how you avoid a direct question and then freely offer up the answers to others later in a post. I have directly asked you about your school and teacher a number of times and you are always very aloof.

That's rich, coming from you.

I'm not giving out personal information over the internet. Especially when there are plenty of unstable people on this forum. (You're one of them).

I also don't answer every question you post, because I have you on ignore. This site has a lovely feature that let's you view ignored content, which is how I manage to get dragged back into arguments with people that my better judgment has said to just ignore.

And I will add this; wouldn't it make All of your training work much better if you started looking for how it all compliments each other instead of how everything is very separated and disjointed?

Jee, what a brilliant idea! I wish I'd have thought of that! I wish I'd have thought "how to practically use the double knife-hand block?" That would have been a great question to ask several years ago! I wish I'd have thought "how do the forms translate to fighting?" That would have been a great question to ask several years ago! I wish I'd asked questions on multiple forums, watched videos, read books, and done everything in my power to uncover this connectiveness you speak of. That would have been a good idea to have done several years ago. It would have been a good idea to try some of the things out and see how they work. Man, I wish I'd have thought of that years ago.

Oh.

Wait.

I did.

What I did is follow the scientific method.

1. Question - How to use these techniques effectively?
2. Background - I know the forms. I know Karate does Bunkai (even though TKD does not). I know many practical applications of martial arts moves.
3. Hypothesis - There is a connection between the techniques and the practical application that I'm not seeing.
4. Gather Data - asked questions online in general forums, through PMs, and to high-ranking people I train with. Watched videos from TKD and Karate guys doing practical explanation. Watched videos and read articles from KKW guys (and other TKD/Karate guys) attempting to answer this question. Read books such as The Taegeuk Cipher.
5. Analyze Data - Data shows there is not a 1-to-1 match of the poomsae to useful technique. In almost every case, the technique has to be de-stylized or have a lot of other pieces added for the proposed application to make sense. As a teaching method, the kata are superfluous, because you can teach the techniques themselves without the kata.
6. New Hypothesis - There is a purpose that I am missing from the forms.
7. Gather New Data - Ask the question again "what is the purpose of forms?" Post my opinions on Taekwondo forms and see what kind of responses I get - does anyone challenge my opinion that they are not practical, and offer sufficient argument to make me change my mind? Talk with people in person. Watch videos of the forms with explanation, such as excerpts from the KKW master class, or going to another art and watching Jesse Enkamp dissect Karate kata and explain why things are done the way they are done. Reflect on my own training, and what I enjoy about the forms.
8. New Analysis - The forms are stylized. They are useful for training, in that they really work your legs (if you're doing proper stances), and they teach the body mechanics of how to move and transfer weight in different ways. I personally prefer the stances and shifts in the Palgwe forms to the Taegeuk forms (unfortunately the Taegeuks are what's required). Ironically, I more often see the footwork in the forms useful than the hand techniques. I also see them as a way to practice attention-to-detail, an important skill for kids to learn, and for older adults to maintain their memory.

This is where I'm at with it right now. You ask the question "wouldn't it be nice if it connected together?" Well, yes. But it doesn't. I spent 5 years trying to find those connections, and they simply are not there. I am open to corrections. But those corrections need to be convincing enough to make me change my mind. And when the person "correcting" me thinks that "exact" and "1-to-1" are two completely different things, I have a hard time accepting that opinion.

You say you don't want to spoonfeed me. I'm not asking to be spoonfed. I've done tons of legwork and come to a conclusion. If you actually want to convince me that you're right, I'll need facts to prove me wrong. Providing facts to support your argument is not "spoon-feeding." It's debate. Either you have those facts and you refuse to give them (which would suggest you're not helpful, as you claim to be), or you don't have the facts, because they don't exist.

This is why I say people who make the claims you make are selling snake oil. What you suggest sounds nice, but there's no evidence to back it up. And when I ask for evidence, you say I have to find it on my own, and chastise me for not looking. You make it about my character, instead of about the evidence. You call me a bigot and claim you're trying to help. Are you? Are you really? Or are you just trying to silence my voice, because you feel offended that I dare say anything against Taekwondo?

 

[Graywalker]

I know he want engage (skribs) but I am not sure what his question is.

Kata, are basically a manual of techniques, is he asking how to use the individual techniques or the Kata as a whole? Or is he just a person that thinks its supposed to be done the exact way, in combat?

 

[dvcochran]

Do you not understand what the word "exactly" means?

If it's "exact" it's 1-to-1. If it's not exact, then it's not 1-to-1.

You took a very small piece or sample of the whole and claimed 'all of it is not 1 to 1'. It just does not work that way.

That's rich, coming from you.

I'm not giving out personal information over the internet. Especially when there are plenty of unstable people on this forum. (You're one of them).

I also don't answer every question you post, because I have you on ignore. This site has a lovely feature that let's you view ignored content, which is how I manage to get dragged back into arguments with people that my better judgment has said to just ignore.

Then I suggest you put me back on ignore.
No one is asking for your address and social security number here. Everyone in a sound program freely shares their general information; you being an exception.

As far as the rest of your post, it is just as I said; you want everything in fast forward but you cannot digest the information. No one should want it that way and I know of no one who is going to freely give it to you that way.

Man, I really want you to get there.

 

[Graywalker]

Ok well...ignore the 4 horsemen.

 

[dvcochran]

Or is he just a person that thinks its supposed to be done the exact way, in combat?

This is the gist of it. He just doesn't understand the marriage of forms and fighting.

 

[skribs]

This is the gist of it. He just doesn't understand the marriage of forms and fighting.

It wasn't a healthy marriage, so they got divorced.