Question regarding rank?

[terryl965]

What is the purpose of the word "Master" "Grand Master", "Professor", "Soke",

Here is the word Mater y the dictionary

Main Entry: 1mas·ter Pronunciation: \&#712;mas-t&#601;r\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old English magister & Anglo-French meistre, both from Latin magister; akin to Latin magnus large — more at much Date: before 12th century 1 a (1): a male teacher (2): a person holding an academic degree higher than a bachelor's but lower than a doctor's boften capitalized : a revered religious leader c: a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices d (1): an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill (2): a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal2 a: one having authority over another : ruler, governor b: one that conquers or masters : victor, superior <in the new challenger the champion found his master> c: a person licensed to command a merchant ship d (1): one having control (2): an owner especially of a slave or animal e: the employer especially of a servant f (1)dialect : husband (2): the male head of a household3 a (1)archaic : mr. (2): a youth or boy too young to be called mister —used as a title b: the eldest son of a Scottish viscount or baron4 a: a presiding officer in an institution or society (as a college) b: any of several officers of court appointed to assist (as by hearing and reporting) a judge5 a: a master mechanism or device b: an original from which copies can be made; especially : a master recording (as a magnetic tape)
— mas·ter·ship \-&#716;ship\ noun

GrandMaster


Main Entry: grand master Function: noun Date: 1724 1 : the chief officer of a principal lodge in various fraternal orders (as Freemasonry) 2 : an expert player (as of chess) who has consistently scored high in international competition




Professor:

Main Entry: pro·fes·sor Pronunciation: \pr&#601;-&#712;fe-s&#601;r\ Function: noun Date: 14th century 1: one that professes, avows, or declares2 a: a faculty member of the highest academic rank at an institution of higher education b: a teacher at a university, college, or sometimes secondary school c: one that teaches or professes special knowledge of an art, sport, or occupation requiring skill
— pro·fes·so·ri·al \&#716;pr&#333;-f&#601;-&#712;so&#775;r-&#275;-&#601;l, &#716;prä-\ adjective
— pro·fes·so·ri·al·ly \-&#275;-&#601;-l&#275;\ adverb
— pro·fes·sor·ship \pr&#601;-&#712;fe-s&#601;r-&#716;ship\ noun




Soke:
Main Entry: soke Pronunciation: \&#712;s&#333;k\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English soc, soke, from Old English soka, from Medieval Latin soca, from Old English s&#333;cn inquiry, jurisdiction; akin to Old English s&#275;can to seek Date: 12th century 1 : the right in Anglo-Saxon and early English law to hold court and administer justice with the franchise to receive certain fees or fines arising from it : jurisdiction over a territory or over people 2 : the district included in a soke jurisdiction or franchise

These came from the Merrian Webster dictionary, so how was they adopted into the Martial Art society and for what true meaning did it once hold?

 

[YoungMan]

Problem is, American students often use these terms in ways very different from how they are used in Oriental culture.
According to the dictionary definition of Grandmaster, a international level tournament competitor would be a Grandmaster. This is undoubtably NOT how the term is meant to be used in Taekwondo culture.
According to these definitions, ANY teacher would be a professor. A professor is an esteemed teacher at the University level teaching academic subjects. It has nothing to do with Taekwondo.

 

[terryl965]

But see that is my point why are we using terms like these that really have no diffinition to what we do. Why do we not find the right word for the rank we use? I mean the words get use without even readingwhat it truely means.

 

[Kacey]

ITF rankings for black belt are as follows:

I-III Dan = novice black belt - instructor of color belts
IV-VI Dan = expert black belt - instructor of novice black belts
VII-VIII Dan = master instructor - instructor of expert black belts
IX = grand master instructor - instructor of master black belts

Notice that all rankings refer to who the black belt should be teaching, based on their (presumed) acquired knowledge and ability. That doesn't mean that all black belts can't teach anyone of their rank or lower - just that the higher you go in rank, the higher your potential students are as well. "Master" in English is probably a poor choice of terminology, but it is too engrained at that point to change easily.

 

[morph4me]

I believe these are translations of the language that the art was originally taught in, so you're title in Korean, Japanese, Chinese, etc. translates into master, grandmaster, professor etc. The translations are probably not exact, but close enough in English to give the idea of the meaning

 

[Andrew Green]

"Master" - Has high rank, higher ego. Likes the idea of having everyone refer to him as "Master", secretly wants a senior student named "Igor".

"Grand Master" - With all these masters floating around needs a way to distinguish himself as superior to them, it also sounds somewhat more sophisticated as its usually used to refer to really smart guys that play chess.

"Professor" - Is above the idea of being refered to as "Master" as that is silly kung fu movie nonsense, but is still uber-good and wants people to know it, so uses a title that is usually reserved for really smart people with PHds, afterall, he's smarter then all those Phd's when it comes to martial arts. THis title also implies that his skill is intellectual, not physical, so no worries about having to actually do anything physical... like a situp.

"Soke" - All those other titiles are just not good enough to showcase his great powers of awsomeness, a new one is needed that sounds really Japanese and traditional, one that can only be inherited through families going back hundreds of years... thats the sort of title this person prefers, but he can't get it, so he just claims it anyways. Not his fault those Japanese people won't recognize him, they are just jealous of his super-skills anyways.

Hope that clears thigns up

 

[terryl965]

"Master" - Has high rank, higher ego. Likes the idea of having everyone refer to him as "Master", secretly wants a senior student named "Igor".

"Grand Master" - With all these masters floating around needs a way to distinguish himself as superior to them, it also sounds somewhat more sophisticated as its usually used to refer to really smart guys that play chess.

"Professor" - Is above the idea of being refered to as "Master" as that is silly kung fu movie nonsense, but is still uber-good and wants people to know it, so uses a title that is usually reserved for really smart people with PHds, afterall, he's smarter then all those Phd's when it comes to martial arts. THis title also implies that his skill is intellectual, not physical, so no worries about having to actually do anything physical... like a situp.

"Soke" - All those other titiles are just not good enough to showcase his great powers of awsomeness, a new one is needed that sounds really Japanese and traditional, one that can only be inherited through families going back hundreds of years... thats the sort of title this person prefers, but he can't get it, so he just claims it anyways. Not his fault those Japanese people won't recognize him, they are just jealous of his super-skills anyways.

Hope that clears thigns up

LMAO:mst:

 

[shihansmurf]

"Master" - Has high rank, higher ego. Likes the idea of having everyone refer to him as "Master", secretly wants a senior student named "Igor".

"Grand Master" - With all these masters floating around needs a way to distinguish himself as superior to them, it also sounds somewhat more sophisticated as its usually used to refer to really smart guys that play chess.

"Professor" - Is above the idea of being refered to as "Master" as that is silly kung fu movie nonsense, but is still uber-good and wants people to know it, so uses a title that is usually reserved for really smart people with PHds, afterall, he's smarter then all those Phd's when it comes to martial arts. THis title also implies that his skill is intellectual, not physical, so no worries about having to actually do anything physical... like a situp.

"Soke" - All those other titiles are just not good enough to showcase his great powers of awsomeness, a new one is needed that sounds really Japanese and traditional, one that can only be inherited through families going back hundreds of years... thats the sort of title this person prefers, but he can't get it, so he just claims it anyways. Not his fault those Japanese people won't recognize him, they are just jealous of his super-skills anyways.

Hope that clears thigns up

This possibly is the most accurate and truthfull comment I've ever read on this subject. Well said, Sir.

I personaly like the term "Coach", what with that being what we are.
Mister/Miss(Missus) are never not appropriate, especially here is the west. Sir/Ma'am reamin polite without sinking into servility.

Ultimately, as Mr. Green pointed out, all those fancy titles are a way to stroke the ego. I think that they could be dropped without losing one thing of value from the martial arts.

Just my opinion.
Mark

 

[Xue Sheng]

But see that is my point why are we using terms like these that really have no diffinition to what we do.

As far as Traditional Northern CMA is concerned in the west....Sales.

Westerners are impressed by titles.

Why do we not find the right word for the rank we use? I mean the words get use without even readingwhat it truely means.

The terminology that we use based on direct translation is incorrect

Sifu means teacher or to be more correct a teacher that is teaching you some sort of skill

In the North on mainland China if you are alive and called a Grandmaster it is sarcastic if you are calling someone that has passed away a grandmaster it is respectful.

Something interesting if you go to Chinese martial arts websites that are in both English and Chinese you will see the term "Grandmaster" on the English page. On the Chinese page you will see Sifu but not "Grand Master"

And I must apologize but the pinyin on the term grand master escapes me at the moment I will post it later. But what the Chinese use that was translated to grand master is not grand master it is more Grandfather teacher and you will not see that in a Northern Chinese MA site either, unless it is geared towards westerners.

 

[CoryKS]

Soke:
Main Entry: soke Pronunciation: \&#712;s&#333;k\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English soc, soke, from Old English soka, from Medieval Latin soca, from Old English s&#333;cn inquiry, jurisdiction; akin to Old English s&#275;can to seek Date: 12th century 1 : the right in Anglo-Saxon and early English law to hold court and administer justice with the franchise to receive certain fees or fines arising from it : jurisdiction over a territory or over people 2 : the district included in a soke jurisdiction or franchise

That's very interesting. Not being in a style that uses this term, I had assumed that it was a Japanese word and was pronounced so-keh. Thanks!

 

[Andrew Green]

That's very interesting. Not being in a style that uses this term, I had assumed that it was a Japanese word and was pronounced so-keh. Thanks!

It is a Japanese term, it just happens to have a English word with the same spelling:

English:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soke_(legal)

Japanese:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sōke

It is the Japanese version that martial artists like.

 

[Monadnock]

I think most school owners can be classified as either an instructor or teacher, regardless of rank. If you own a school, you must be teaching/instructing "something."

Most other English titles like Master, Grand Master, etc. have to do with rank, and not all schools choose to use them. Titles that come with or witout rank have been around longer than most people care to research.

Many schools with roots to the East usually keep their specific title names, like Shihan, Kyoshi, or Shidoshi. Their mimicing american counterparts who prefer to remain american in their art, but copy the idea of using Titles, will use the nearest English equivalent, with some jazzy prefixes to one-up the school down the street. That's where the Master, Grand Master, Great Grand Master...blah blah blah all came from.

In the end, this guy/gal is only human, and if they plaster such a title on their school windows or flyers, I'd look elsewhere.

 

[Twin Fist]

I think the terms are as important as you make them.

Or not
the following are my own personal definitions, so please dont think they are anything else.

Master- Someone who is fully able to promote all the way to Sandan (3rd Degree Black) on thier own authority

Professor- A teacher of Masters

Grandmaster- A teacher of Professors

Soke- A Head of System

Grandmaster and Soke are sometimes interchangable.

 

[Steve]

We use coach, but it's not uncommon to hear the term "professor" from the Brazilian Portuguese translation of Sensei, I believe (though may be mistaken).

 

[Hawke]

Different countries have different words for teacher.

China: Sifu is a combination of teacher and father.

Also Sigung which is "Grandfather" or the Sifu's sifu (usually given to the person that created the art).

Japan: Sensei is born first or one who has gone before.

Korea: Suseung-nim is teacher and Sabom-nim for a 4th degree and above.

Malay: Pendekar for silat players.

FMA: Guru/Guro for teacher.

The Asian traditional martial arts ranks do not translate well into the Western world. Some of the amazing teachers I have been lucky enough to meet were humble and did not care about their own title/rank, but would show tremendous respect for their teacher(s).

 

[Xue Sheng]

Different countries have different words for teacher.

China: Sifu is a combination of teacher and father.

Yup

Also Sigung which is "Grandfather" or the Sifu's sifu (usually given to the person that created the art).

Yup but again in the North not if he is still alive or at least that is my experience

And in reference to my previous post

Sigung does not translate as Grandmaster it is, similar to what Hawke said, more like grandfather teacher.

Grandmaster would be Dashi (da-shr) and not generally used in the North of China unless of course as I said it is used sarcastically

So if you walk up to a legitamete CMA master and call him Dashi and you are american he may just think you have no idea what you are talking about and you are a bit silly. But if you try it and your chinese you better have your running shoes on.

 

[MJS]

What is the purpose of the word "Master" "Grand Master", "Professor", "Soke",

Here is the word Mater y the dictionary

Main Entry: 1mas·ter Pronunciation: \&#712;mas-t&#601;r\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old English magister & Anglo-French meistre, both from Latin magister; akin to Latin magnus large — more at much Date: before 12th century 1 a (1): a male teacher (2): a person holding an academic degree higher than a bachelor's but lower than a doctor's boften capitalized : a revered religious leader c: a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices d (1): an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill (2): a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal2 a: one having authority over another : ruler, governor b: one that conquers or masters : victor, superior <in the new challenger the champion found his master> c: a person licensed to command a merchant ship d (1): one having control (2): an owner especially of a slave or animal e: the employer especially of a servant f (1)dialect : husband (2): the male head of a household3 a (1)archaic : mr. (2): a youth or boy too young to be called mister —used as a title b: the eldest son of a Scottish viscount or baron4 a: a presiding officer in an institution or society (as a college) b: any of several officers of court appointed to assist (as by hearing and reporting) a judge5 a: a master mechanism or device b: an original from which copies can be made; especially : a master recording (as a magnetic tape)
— mas·ter·ship \-&#716;ship\ noun

GrandMaster


Main Entry: grand master Function: noun Date: 1724 1 : the chief officer of a principal lodge in various fraternal orders (as Freemasonry) 2 : an expert player (as of chess) who has consistently scored high in international competition




Professor:

Main Entry: pro·fes·sor Pronunciation: \pr&#601;-&#712;fe-s&#601;r\ Function: noun Date: 14th century 1: one that professes, avows, or declares2 a: a faculty member of the highest academic rank at an institution of higher education b: a teacher at a university, college, or sometimes secondary school c: one that teaches or professes special knowledge of an art, sport, or occupation requiring skill
— pro·fes·so·ri·al \&#716;pr&#333;-f&#601;-&#712;so&#775;r-&#275;-&#601;l, &#716;prä-\ adjective
— pro·fes·so·ri·al·ly \-&#275;-&#601;-l&#275;\ adverb
— pro·fes·sor·ship \pr&#601;-&#712;fe-s&#601;r-&#716;ship\ noun




Soke:
Main Entry: soke Pronunciation: \&#712;s&#333;k\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English soc, soke, from Old English soka, from Medieval Latin soca, from Old English s&#333;cn inquiry, jurisdiction; akin to Old English s&#275;can to seek Date: 12th century 1 : the right in Anglo-Saxon and early English law to hold court and administer justice with the franchise to receive certain fees or fines arising from it : jurisdiction over a territory or over people 2 : the district included in a soke jurisdiction or franchise

These came from the Merrian Webster dictionary, so how was they adopted into the Martial Art society and for what true meaning did it once hold?

What is the purpose of these titles? I think Andrew made a great point. IMO, many of the titles are used so people "ohh" and "ahh" over someone. It makes the title holder feel good and makes others view them on a high pedestal. Like I always say...impress me with your skill, not your fancy title or belt rank.

Of course, there are people that hold these titles, that don't do it for the ego. They have the skill to back up the use of the title. Its those people IMO, that I'm fine with their use of it.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

We have a lot of people who wear the same uniform and the same belt in my dojo (we don't wear stripes on our black belts because they look tacky and have tactical advantage whatsoever). We don't even regard one another with our proper titles. My instructor is called sensei, though through his grade I think it's closer to hanshi (or even beyond that since he carries menkyo). I'm a sensei and so are all the other black belts. Personally I usually let people call me by my first name, I'm not a stickler for rank or anything like that. I suppose if you had people coming to look into your dojo you'd have to have rank I suppose for them to identify who to talk to. Other than that it's not all that in todays day and age.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Although we in the States have used the terms incorrectly in many cases we have used them to differentiate the skill level of different people with in our organizations:
In most systems now we have: student, teacher (sifu, sensi), master ( teachers teacher), grand master ( masters teacher)
Now for soke, well that is reserved for those that need to buy their title because they could not get rank in their original organization and wanted to have more rank and look more important to the masses

 

[YoungMan]

Hence, the Head of Family Sokeship Organization, which is pretty much what that group is composed of. Want to impress each other and look good to the (gullible) masses.