Question re: Kukkiwon statistics

[TrueJim]

Over in the thread "Hapidoish Taekwondo Training" we eventually got into the topic of # black belts by dan for Kukkiwon-style taekwondo. I pointed to this Kukkiwon webpage where such statistics may be found: K.M.S Unifying the world with Taekwondo We are the KUKKIWON family but I didn't really pay close attention to the numbers themselves...until now. Specifically, click on any one of those continents to get summary statistics for the whole globe.

Black Belts / Dojangs = Ratio
Total: 8,974,407 / 7913 = 1,134
Asia: 8,406,522 / 676 = 12,436
Africa: 38,641 / 194 = 199
Austrailia/Oceana: 28,040 / 172 = 163
Americas: 375,637 / 4294 = 87
Europe: 125,567 / 2577 = 49

The Americas (North, Central, South) have over four thousand dojangs registered with Kukkiwon. At first blush: wow, seems like a lot. Now, hypothetically, if half of those were in the U.S. (which seems possible) then that's 40 dojangs registered per-state in the U.S. Me being located here in the U.S., that seems credible...I can wrap my head around that.... 40 shopping-centers per state each with a Kukkiwon-style taekwondo school in it (for example). That doesn't seem too amazing.

But then I look at the ratio of Black Belts per Dojangs. Only 87 registered Black Belts per Dojang in the Americas. Figuring many U.S. schools have been around for (say) a decade or so, that's about 9 Black Belts awarded per year...seems low, but maybe I'm just used to seeing bigger schools in my neighborhood.

Here's my question though: According to the above, in all of Asia there are only 676 dojangs registered with Kukkiwon, but there are over EIGHT MILLION black belts? That means each school has turned out over 12,000 black belts? Wow! Even if you figure the Korean schools have been around for 5-10 times longer than the U.S. school, that still doesn't get you anywhere near 12,000 black belts per school! If you suppose that Asian schools have been in business for (say) 50 years, that's like...250 black belts being turned out per year per school! These schools would have to be massive! I mean, I know the Kukkiwon itself is big, and turns out a lot of black belts, but still...that big skew in the ratios can't all be due to just one big school, can it?

Somebody who is more familiar with Asian taekwondo schools...any idea how Asia is turning out so many black belts with so few schools? What am I missing?

 

[IcemanSK]

I don't know exactly why this is the case, but I have a guess. Registering one's dojang with Kukkiwon is a relatively new thing (only a few years). One need only be 4th Dan Kukkiwon in order to recommend someone for 1st Dan/Poom. One doesn't need to have one's dojang registered with Kukkiwon in order to recommend 1st Dan/Poom. I'm sure many KKW folks in the US don't have their dojang registered, and many folks who recommend folks to Kukkiwon may not have a dojang of their own.

Just a few possibilities to consider.

 

[Archtkd]

Over in the thread "Hapidoish Taekwondo Training" we eventually got into the topic of # black belts by dan for Kukkiwon-style taekwondo. I pointed to this Kukkiwon webpage where such statistics may be found: K.M.S Unifying the world with Taekwondo We are the KUKKIWON family but I didn't really pay close attention to the numbers themselves...until now. Specifically, click on any one of those continents to get summary statistics for the whole globe.

Black Belts / Dojangs = Ratio
Total: 8,974,407 / 7913 = 1,134
Asia: 8,406,522 / 676 = 12,436
Africa: 38,641 / 194 = 199
Austrailia/Oceana: 28,040 / 172 = 163
Americas: 375,637 / 4294 = 87
Europe: 125,567 / 2577 = 49

The Americas (North, Central, South) have over four thousand dojangs registered with Kukkiwon. At first blush: wow, seems like a lot. Now, hypothetically, if half of those were in the U.S. (which seems possible) then that's 40 dojangs registered per-state in the U.S. Me being located here in the U.S., that seems credible...I can wrap my head around that.... 40 shopping-centers per state each with a Kukkiwon-style taekwondo school in it (for example). That doesn't seem too amazing.

But then I look at the ratio of Black Belts per Dojangs. Only 87 registered Black Belts per Dojang in the Americas. Figuring many U.S. schools have been around for (say) a decade or so, that's about 9 Black Belts awarded per year...seems low, but maybe I'm just used to seeing bigger schools in my neighborhood.

Here's my question though: According to the above, in all of Asia there are only 676 dojangs registered with Kukkiwon, but there are over EIGHT MILLION black belts? That means each school has turned out over 12,000 black belts? Wow! Even if you figure the Korean schools have been around for 5-10 times longer than the U.S. school, that still doesn't get you anywhere near 12,000 black belts per school! If you suppose that Asian schools have been in business for (say) 50 years, that's like...250 black belts being turned out per year per school! These schools would have to be massive! I mean, I know the Kukkiwon itself is big, and turns out a lot of black belts, but still...that big skew in the ratios can't all be due to just one big school, can it?

Somebody who is more familiar with Asian taekwondo schools...any idea how Asia is turning out so many black belts with so few schools? What am I missing?

That's a difficult question but here are some things to think about before calculating dojang/poom and dan holder ratios:

1. In most countries, save for the U.S and some European countries, taekwondo is mainly run by non-profit clubs -- not the store front commercial dojangs mosty found in U.S cities. Those clubs are often registered with regional and national associations, which in turn do all the dan/poom testing and processing. The individual clubs are often not registered directly with the Kukkiwon -- a registration process that only began five years ago. I would suspect this is the case in a lot of Asian countries.

2. Take the U.S dojang stats with a grain of salt: They are mostly innacurate and count some dojangs twice or include many others that have Kukkiwon certifiied dan holders, who never recommend their own students for Kukkiwon certification. That is the case here in Missouri, where some of the largest dojang chains are run by Korean-born masters, who teach some variations of Kukkiwon style taekwondo but never process Kukkiwon certificates.

3. As Iceman notes, there are mainy teachers who process poom/dan certificates in the United States, but their dojangs are not registered with the Kukkiwon.

4. I don't have current South Korea stats, but in 2001 the country had 2,775,932 poom/dan holders. I would put that number close to 5 million today, which means it account for about 60 percent of all Kukkiwon dan/poom holders in Asia. I guess that number does not just come from indiviual dojangs in Korea but includes dan/poom holders produced by primary and high schools, universities, other tertiary institutions and the military.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Not to mention all of the schools throughout the world that have nothing to do with the Kukkiwon.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I'm going to tread lightly into the thread. I don't want my comments to be seen as a KKW-bash. But some things need to be tossed on the table for consideration/discussion.

To begin with, and we've talked about this here in the past (and confirmed by those that have visited Korea/trained in Korea), a Korean child can basically get to first Dan in about a year. Whether it is a poom that converts or a first Dan outright, it amounts to the same stat. Not saying this is good or bad, just that this is the common practice. One of the criticisms in the past, by others, has been that the Korean child (or teen) most often gets the belt and then drifts off to something else. Perhaps another sport or school or whatever. And the adults in general don't seem to have the time for TKD. If you look at the 2001 stats you'll see a major drop off from first Dan to second. Less than half of them stay around to obtain the next rank. From second to third you see about a 75% drop off and so forth.

What I'm saying is that while the numbers look impressive on the surface, we need to understand that the bulk are no longer practicing the art. ArchTKD estimates that the current numbers are probably around five million and I agree. So the question becomes; what % of that number is active? The same can be said for any country of course, but in other countries TKD isn't a compulsory requirement. I don't specifically 'know' that it is in the ROK, but I would imagine that it is strenuously suggested if it isn't required?

This isn't taking anything away from the KKW. If they're total number of BB's is ten million and 90% are no longer active we're still talking a million active BB's. That's pretty impressive.

One other consideration, and again not meant to be a bash, there have been and continue to be KKW instructors who give KKW certificates to TKD practitioners even if they don't practice KKW TKD. So you'll have some of the overall number that while registered in the KKW don't really practice KKW TKD.

So for whatever country we're looking at we need to put it in perspective.

 

[Tez3]

I don't know if it's relevant to this but here in the UK at the Infantry Training Centre all the Gurkha recruits have to take TKD ( I don't know why), they grade of course and most likely all come out as black belts even if they never train again but I should think that bumps up the number of BBs here quite a bit! Watching them train is quite interesting, a hundred or so at a time like the pictures you see from Korea.

 

[Archtkd]

I'm going to tread lightly into the thread. I don't want my comments to be seen as a KKW-bash. But some things need to be tossed on the table for consideration/discussion.

To begin with, and we've talked about this here in the past (and confirmed by those that have visited Korea/trained in Korea), a Korean child can basically get to first Dan in about a year. Whether it is a poom that converts or a first Dan outright, it amounts to the same stat. Not saying this is good or bad, just that this is the common practice. One of the criticisms in the past, by others, has been that the Korean child (or teen) most often gets the belt and then drifts off to something else. Perhaps another sport or school or whatever. And the adults in general don't seem to have the time for TKD. If you look at the 2001 stats you'll see a major drop off from first Dan to second. Less than half of them stay around to obtain the next rank. From second to third you see about a 75% drop off and so forth.

What I'm saying is that while the numbers look impressive on the surface, we need to understand that the bulk are no longer practicing the art. ArchTKD estimates that the current numbers are probably around five million and I agree. So the question becomes; what % of that number is active? The same can be said for any country of course, but in other countries TKD isn't a compulsory requirement. I don't specifically 'know' that it is in the ROK, but I would imagine that it is strenuously suggested if it isn't required?

This isn't taking anything away from the KKW. If they're total number of BB's is ten million and 90% are no longer active we're still talking a million active BB's. That's pretty impressive.

One other consideration, and again not meant to be a bash, there have been and continue to be KKW instructors who give KKW certificates to TKD practitioners even if they don't practice KKW TKD. So you'll have some of the overall number that while registered in the KKW don't really practice KKW TKD.

So for whatever country we're looking at we need to put it in perspective.

I think that's a good and fair assessment.. In Korea, -- and we are on sensitive ground here -- I don't think we should take those numbers very seriously until we get to third dan and up. I think the same coud be done for the U.S. We have one or two taekwondo instructors in Korea, on this boards, and I hope they could step in with their thoughts. One of the ways I like analyzing Korea stats is to look at the number of instructors the Kukkiwon has qualified -- which means 4th dans and up, who have also taken and passed the Kukkiwon instructor course. The onlly problem with that is that the Kukkiwon only shows how many Korean have qualified as sabums, but does not include individual stats for other countries. Here are those master instructor stats:

Korea

A. 1st Class Grade master – 8th - 9th Dan
Completion - Cumulative from 2005 to the end of 2013 : 260
Certificate - Cumulative from 2005 to the end of 2013 : 255

B. 2nd Class Grade master – 6th - 7th Dan
Completion - Cumulative from 1996 to the end of 2013 : 1,225
Certificate - Cumulative from 1996 to the end of 2013 : 1,188

C. 3rd Class Grade master (domestic) – 4th - 5th Dan
Completion - Cumulative from 1972 to the end of 2013 : 40,280
Certificate - Cumulative from 1972 to the end of 2013 : 36,394

Rest of the World

D. 1st 1~ 3rd Class Grade international master – 4th - 9th Dan
Completion - Cumulative from 1998 to the end of 2013 : 2,709
Certificate - Cumulative from 1998 to the end of 2013 : 2,093

The difference between completing and certificate indicates how many people fail the test at the end of the master certification course. In Korea, only Kukkiwon-certified instructors can open and operate their own Kukkiwon style dojangs. Those rules don't apply in the rest of the world, and the late GM Al Cole, took years to convince the Kukkiwon to begin (in 1998) offering master instructor courses for masters outside Korea.

 

[WaterGal]

T2. Take the U.S dojang stats with a grain of salt: They are mostly innacurate and count some dojangs twice or include many others that have Kukkiwon certifiied dan holders, who never recommend their own students for Kukkiwon certification.

That's a good point. For example, there's a school around here that's listed on the KKW website, but they don't actually teach TKD. One of the teachers must have a KKW ranking and that's how they're registered, but I really doubt they're giving anyone KKW certs (well, I hope not).

4. I don't have current South Korea stats, but in 2001 the country had 2,775,932 poom/dan holders. I would put that number close to 5 million today, which means it account for about 60 percent of all Kukkiwon dan/poom holders in Asia. I guess that number does not just come from indiviual dojangs in Korea but includes dan/poom holders produced by primary and high schools, universities, other tertiary institutions and the military.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I've heard from Koreans I know, that a lot of people there learn TKD in school/military/etc rather than at a commercial dojang. Plus that a lot of kids do it for like 12-18 mos, get a 1st poom/dan and quit.

And while this is pure speculation, I do wonder if there are a lot of chain schools there, each with many locations. If so, the chain might be registered as just one school under the kwanjang, who's promoting 100+ 1st dans/pooms every year.

 

[Jaeimseu]

In many cases, Taekwondo is treated like baseball in the US. Nearly everyone does it for a while. The kids who show talent or promise stick with it.

Most Korean parents don't want their kids to "waste" time with activities like taekwondo unless they excel at it. They prefer to focus their energy and time on education.

Dojang for adults do exist. I teach at one of, if not the largest adults only dojang in Korea.

We also have a dojang with kids. The vast majority of the students are between 4-8 years old. Kids who are still going to the dojang every day by high school are the cream of the crop who are fighting for spots at university.