question about origins of Tae Kwon Do

[HighKick]

interesting - the stuff I have read was that Hwang Kee never employed the TKD moniker, and some indications that he was really opposed to it. If you have any sources about his adoption of that moniker I would be interested to see it. Because of what I have read I always felt referring to MDK people as TKD people might be looked upon as an insult. Hwang Kee - Wikipedia

I will say I misspoke when I said 'split' solely in regard to GM Kee, but there was definitely a split within MDK where some stayed TSD and some went TKD. It is easy to find with a Google search, but I believe the largest MDK TKD organization is the Pan-American Moo Duk Kwan Association (my how Koreans are all about names), with the Korean MDK Association a close second.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I will say I misspoke when I said 'split' solely in regard to GM Kee, but there was definitely a split within MDK where some stayed TSD and some went TKD. It is easy to find with a Google search, but I believe the largest MDK TKD organization is the Pan-American Moo Duk Kwan Association (my how Koreans are all about names), with the Korean MDK Association a close second.

I'm waiting to see the formation of the Traditional American World International Progressive Martial Art Federation of Organized Associations, commonly referred to as TAWIP-MAFOA.

The proposed head of TAWIP-MAFOA is Master Fred (currently based out of his garage in Kansas) who has broad experience, holding at least an orange belt in eleven different arts. Once he signs the charter, he will award himself a platinum belt, leaving no doubt of his qualifications.

Oh, and membership in TAWIP-MAFOA is FREE. However, it offers no benefits either. Now that I think about it, there's really no reason to join (except that "TAWIP-MAFOA" is fun to say). So please disregard this post.

 

[Earl Weiss]

It was originally called Tang Soo Do. If the TKD label was ever applied, it would have been during the brief period in which he was involved with the unification movement. I do not think it was used by him, but cannot prove it. There are certainly branches of the MDK that did/do classify themselves as TKD stylists.

As far as insults go, it seems a non-issue. Just call them whatever they want to be called.

Many of the systems practiced by the Kwans were called Tang Soo Do so that is unsurprising. Also in Chuck Norris early books he refers to what he studied in Korea as TSD but later books seem to call it TKD. I don't know which branch / Kwan he was with in Korea - Does anyone know? Additionally in the early days of TK-D many schools / clubs used a Karate Reference for marketing, so, with the popularity of TKD expanding it would not be surprising if some MDK branches did the same.

Interesting to say we should call them whatever they want - but then we have an issue of people being "Shocked" to learn they have been operating under incorrect information. Case in point - Gentleman I knew well and had studied under TK-D Pioneer Han Cha Kyo stated he did CDK et they did the Chang Hon Patterns which were not the the CDK system but the TK-D / Chang Hon system. Got him to thinking.

At the end f the day I defer to want people want since Generally I am happy to make them happy. - unless they seem to be outright frauds in which case I will tell them so.

 

[HighKick]

Many of the systems practiced by the Kwans were called Tang Soo Do so that is unsurprising. Also in Chuck Norris early books he refers to what he studied in Korea as TSD but later books seem to call it TKD. I don't know which branch / Kwan he was with in Korea - Does anyone know? Additionally in the early days of TK-D many schools / clubs used a Karate Reference for marketing, so, with the popularity of TKD expanding it would not be surprising if some MDK branches did the same.

Interesting to say we should call them whatever they want - but then we have an issue of people being "Shocked" to learn they have been operating under incorrect information. Case in point - Gentleman I knew well and had studied under TK-D Pioneer Han Cha Kyo stated he did CDK et they did the Chang Hon Patterns which were not the the CDK system but the TK-D / Chang Hon system. Got him to thinking.

At the end f the day I defer to want people want since Generally I am happy to make them happy. - unless they seem to be outright frauds in which case I will tell them so.

When I opened my first school in 1985, I named it Midstate Karate Studio because very few people in our area knew what Tae Kwon Do was. Turned out to be a smart move but I eventually changed the name to include Tae Kwon Do in the name.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Many of the systems practiced by the Kwans were called Tang Soo Do so that is unsurprising. Also in Chuck Norris early books he refers to what he studied in Korea as TSD but later books seem to call it TKD. I don't know which branch / Kwan he was with in Korea - Does anyone know? Additionally in the early days of TK-D many schools / clubs used a Karate Reference for marketing, so, with the popularity of TKD expanding it would not be surprising if some MDK branches did the same.

Oral tradition has it that Norris was with the MDK, but you know how reliable that is.

Interesting to say we should call them whatever they want - but then we have an issue of people being "Shocked" to learn they have been operating under incorrect information. Case in point - Gentleman I knew well and had studied under TK-D Pioneer Han Cha Kyo stated he did CDK et they did the Chang Hon Patterns which were not the the CDK system but the TK-D / Chang Hon system. Got him to thinking.

Did what they called it in any way affect their training?

At the end f the day I defer to want people want since Generally I am happy to make them happy. - unless they seem to be outright frauds in which case I will tell them so.

Agreed. It's not my problem.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I am told (by Korean friends and I've also read it in several sources) that in Korea, kicking someone is not only painful but insulting as well, since the foot was/is considered the dirtiest part of the body...

I bet if you really want to get their blood boiling, the one thing that can top that is giving them the stink face like Rikishi.

 

[HighKick]

Some historians, and particularly those tied to the WTF and associated bodies, have a tendency to use Taekkyeon and Subak as the foundation of this theory.

To support this, they then revise the history of the formation of Taekkyeon back to the Three Kingdoms period (with some solid evidence, but remains contested admittedly). Subak apparently has more evidence linking it back earlier than Taekkyeon, which is why the two are lumped together as a sort of two-pronged approach at evaluating the ancestry of modern TKD.

There are reasons for this, including marketing, validity in the eyes of classical martial authorities, and probably most influential is the fact that Korea after many wars had struggled with a sense of cultural heritage or identity - using TKD of the 20th century to act as a sort of "inheritor" of the older Korean martial arts, despite the aforementioned classical arts still being practised today.

Remember, the South Korean army (still does?) or at least did enforce modern TKD as a basis for their non-weapons martial curriculum. This was a calculated endeavour to entice a sense of national pride, regardless of how ineffectual it might be in modern warfare CQC.

Yes, I believe that is still true about the South Korean army, but it is a long way from what WT teaches.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Did what they called it in any way affect their training?

Exactly the issue. People my be applying a name to something being completely unaware the name implies one thing but they are doing something else - Case in point person doing Chang Han patterns and saying they do CDK. They may use a name for a system that is an empty hand system yet train with weapons for offense thinking that is part of the art etc.

 

[isshinryuronin]

While not having studied Korean MA, I've been around for a long time and can share my observations and impressions from 50 years ago.

Remember, the South Korean army (still does?) or at least did enforce modern TKD as a basis for their non-weapons martial curriculum. This was a calculated endeavour to entice a sense of national pride, regardless of how ineffectual it might be in modern warfare CQC.

I remember in the early 70's reading an article in Black Belt magazine about the "Tiger" division in the ROK army that was engaged in Viet Nam. They were reputed to be mostly TKD black belts and a tough fighting force respected by the Americans. I don't think their TKD training was just for "national pride" in those days.

Many of the systems practiced by the Kwans were called Tang Soo Do so that is unsurprising. Also in Chuck Norris early books he refers to what he studied in Korea as TSD but later books seem to call it TKD. I don't know which branch / Kwan he was with in Korea - Does anyone know? Additionally in the early days of TK-D many schools / clubs used a Karate Reference for marketing, so

In 1969-72 I met a couple of TKD instructors from Korea. One's name was Young Ik Suh. They were old school, no nonsense, and tough as nails, quite the opposite of Chuck Norris (who up to that time identified as TSD) in demeanor and in the look of their art. Both these Koreans' kwans represented themselves as TKD. This is not surprising to me as, during that time and thru the 70's, Korea was making a big effort in aggressively building the TKD brand in the US.

I think the American ex-GI instructors (and their students who opened schools) of Korean MA would have been more apt to market their school as "karate," as Norris did. For one, I don't think they saw themselves as Korean "agents," obligated to that government's goals. In the case of Norris, his school was in an upscale area in Sherman Oaks, CA so his marketing was probably geared to that particular segment looking for something already known and "chic."

 

[Haruhiko]

I don't think their TKD training was just for "national pride" in those days.

You're right - not just for national pride, but that was the seed of the idea.

South Korean President Park Chung-hee in the 60s and 70s was big on using TKD to build national pride and unity because he saw it as a way to bring Koreans together post-Japanese occupation and make a unique cultural statement.

Under his leadership, it was introduced as mandatory in the Korean military training curriculum. This gave soldiers not only physical skills but a sense of identity tied to Korean heritage. It was practical for discipline, but more than that, it became a point of national pride that even shaped Korea’s image internationally - like the Tiger division.

 

[Haruhiko]

"Tiger" division

It's Remembrance Day today in Australia so I'd be remiss to not mention the SASR, the “Phantoms of the Jungle” – or "Ma Rừng" as the Vietnamese called them. Off topic but cool that they had their own nickname.

They were apparently trained primarily in judo, with some elements of western boxing and even karate.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Exactly the issue. People my be applying a name to something being completely unaware the name implies one thing but they are doing something else - Case in point person doing Chang Han patterns and saying they do CDK. They may use a name for a system that is an empty hand system yet train with weapons for offense thinking that is part of the art etc.

Right, but again, what does it matter?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Right, but again, what does it matter?

It matters for people looking for a particular system - (90% of newbies who walk in my door have no clue) and then find what the school purports to teach is not what they were seeking. Worse yet, spending significant time with a school or instructor only to later find a lot of that time, effort and money may have been wasted.. Historical example- In the early days of the KKW they accepted all sorts of systems and issued rank. People were often surprised to learn if they sought to transfer to another KKW school they did not know what that school was doing and had to basically start over.

 

[HighKick]

It matters for people looking for a particular system - (90% of newbies who walk in my door have no clue) and then find what the school purports to teach is not what they were seeking. Worse yet, spending significant time with a school or instructor only to later find a lot of that time, effort and money may have been wasted.. Historical example- In the early days of the KKW they accepted all sorts of systems and issued rank. People were often surprised to learn if they sought to transfer to another KKW school they did not know what that school was doing and had to basically start over.

I would still say that is more the norm. The majority TKD schools that have a direct link to a Korean instructor are a hybrid of a Kwan school that teaches KKW poomsae and WT rule sparring.
There was a surge of younger instructors trying to operate purely KKW/WT schools in the early 2,000's, but it is ebbing considerably. Honestly, it just doesn't work as a standalone.

 

[Earl Weiss]

There was a surge of younger instructors trying to operate purely KKW/WT schools in the early 2,000's, but it is ebbing considerably. Honestly, it just doesn't work as a standalone.

"Work" in what respect?

 

[HighKick]

"Work" in what respect?

Honestly, as a martial art IMHO. Works as a sport fairly well.

 

[Buka]

Fifty years ago. There was a guy, Andy, who worked late nights in a convenience store near us. Mellow nice guy.

A good friend’s brother worked part time there for a while. He told us that Andy was former special forces that was stationed in Korea for twelve years and had a martial arts school in downtown Boston. A young black belt at the time, I finally got up the courage to ask Andy about it.

He invited me to his school and told me where it was. It took me two nights to find it.
That second night I looked up and saw this little tiny sign on the third floor of an industrial building that said Tae Kwon Do.

I went in. There were at least fifty people training. It blew my mind. To this day it’s one of the best dojos I’ve ever been in. I learned so much there I’ll never forget it.

 

[HighKick]

Honestly, as a martial art IMHO. Works as a sport fairly well.

I need to edit my post but was unable. It should have said:

Honestly, it does NOT work as a martial art IMHO. It works as a sport fairly well.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I need to edit my post but was unable. It should have said:

Honestly, it does NOT work as a martial art IMHO. It works as a sport fairly well.

Therein lies another issue . No Universally accepted definition of "Martial Art' for common current usage . Some like to parse the term and say "Martial" - War and "Art" is even more problematic. "Whether art can be defined has also been a matter of controversy. The philosophical usefulness of a definition of art has also been debated." Further, parsing a term i.e. "Airplane" Air and Plane ... is even more problematic. When it comes to "Martial" = War, lets face it , any empty hand system really fails in that regard.

 

[HighKick]

Therein lies another issue . No Universally accepted definition of "Martial Art' for common current usage . Some like to parse the term and say "Martial" - War and "Art" is even more problematic. "Whether art can be defined has also been a matter of controversy. The philosophical usefulness of a definition of art has also been debated." Further, parsing a term i.e. "Airplane" Air and Plane ... is even more problematic. When it comes to "Martial" = War, lets face it , any empty handsystem really fails in that regard.

I agree with the conclusion. I suppose I focus more on the 'Art' being synonymous the DO or the Way. Focusing on the mental component first, then adding in the 'Martial' or more violent aspects of traditional training.

We are very careful to set a realistic tone (don't bring a knife to a gunfight) but there is definitely a Martial tone to some of the training. Which is very hard for some people. Those who are the most distanced from any sense of war or attrition have a harder time wrapping their head around really hurting someone else.

As far as a universal definition, I don't think there will ever be one. More likely at the school/system level.