question about origins of Tae Kwon Do

[TraditionalTKD]

My Instructor is the same way-big for a Korean. Not 6'3", but solidly built and tall for being Korean. One of our Instructors posted a photo of him with GM Uhm (Kukkiwon President), and he was quite a bit bigger than him. Mr. Uhm weighs about 130 lbs, and our GM has to weigh considerably more.

 

[IcemanSK]

My Instructor is the same way-big for a Korean. Not 6'3", but solidly built and tall for being Korean. One of our Instructors posted a photo of him with GM Uhm (Kukkiwon President), and he was quite a bit bigger than him. Mr. Uhm weighs about 130 lbs, and our GM has to weigh considerably more.

Yes, GM Uhm is not a big man. Neither is his student, GM Park, Hae Man. I had my picture taken with GM Park in May. I'm 5' 9" & I look very tall next to him. Wouldn't want to compare skills, tho:ultracool

 

[TraditionalTKD]

For weighing 130 lbs, GM Uhm had a side kick that it was my understanding you did not want to be on the receiving end of. What he lacks in size he more than makes up for in everything else.

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

I believe South Koreans are getting larger by the generation, but a couple of thousand years ago (as Taekwondo developed) they were most likely among the shortest in Asia.

The Korean people are getting taller. But this is due to modern diet and hygiene (they also are living longer too). Here in America, we've had a long run of a high standard of living, a well as cross breeding with a variety of ethnic and racial mixes. So we are gigantic compared to many around the world. But since bringing Democracy and the benefits of a high standard of living to Japan and Korea, they too have watched their children grow taller and stronger each generation. In 50 years, the average Korean will be no shorter than the average American, European or Australian. It is merely a matter of good living.

From my experience, the Koreans appear to be smaller than most of their "potential enemies" on the battlefield. As far as being similar to Americans, I find that to be a stretch of reality! (get it? "stretch" of reality!)

'chuckle'

Well....as to being smaller than their potential enemies...this simply isn't true. Japanese and Chinese warriros pre-modern times were no better off in the height department than the Koreans. Granted, the northern barbarians (Manchurians, etc) were often larger than their southern cousins...but only slightly so. And much of their advantage in height had to do with their cross breeding with migratory races that moved across the steppes (remember, the Red Man walked that way before going into North America and these northern tribes had many contacts with tribes settling in the mideast and expanding North, Northeast and Northwest.

It is interesting that often we find shorter people in southern climates. South China, South American, the various island chains that circle the equator. One exception seems to be Indians who had a mix of various races. The Brahmin were quite tall compared to the other castes. Some believe this is due to the harsh climate their ancestors once lived in and migrated from. The caucazoid humans are believed to have evolved from living in Northern climates that forced them to be quite innovative to stay alive...making them rather tough and stoic if not given to an air of superiority. It is believed a migration of so called caucazoid humans gave rise to the caste system and the Brahmin race (Brahmin...the other white meat). LOL.

Today, you will find that South Koreans average just shy of most average Americans or Europeans. Roughly men will be 5-8 to 5-10. Those whose families immigrated a generation or two ago will be atleast average height in the new home country...if not as tall or more.

I've seen Koreans, north and south, over 6 ft tall. But in the north, these are hand selected and placed in strategic places so they will be seen and photographed (i.e. Guard Duty at Panmunjom) to give the illusion they are a race of giants. No one is fooled by this. Go to the North Korean - Chinese border...and you will find virtual pygmies...as they are starved and contained in an area where it is almost impossible for the world to see what horrible lives they are forced to live by an apathetic neighbor and an abusive and cruel parent government.

Korea will never be one country....until the Kim Dynasty in the North is crushed. I have read Karl Marx, and he was an idealogue. His vision was for a utopian society of equality of all. This is actually against the natural order because the forces equalization of people leaves no reward for exceptional excellance while elevating the most recalitrant member to equal status. It is hard to stay motivated to achieve where the idiot is given everything the genius is. Communism has failed as a social experiment. There has been, is and always will be inequalities in life. This is natures way of spurring on the best to always be the best and achieve survival success. Democracy may one day fail if it doesn't learn the lesson of Rome....and that lesson is Mob Rule leads to Mob stupidity. The U.S. today is almost as factioned as it was during its civil war. No foriegn enemy can take the U.S....but it may tear itself apart from within unless some great leadership presents itself in the next generation. The Islamic Extremist are fooling themselves if they believe they will ever rid the planet of their 'so labeled' western infidels. Once you've tasted freedom....you can never go back to living under some archaic dictatorial theocracy. Even Iran, who has sampled the western way, knows this. Why do you think they are pushing so hard to have Nuclear weaponry? Is it to defend itself against western powers? Not hardly. It is two fold: 1. so they can sit at the big table and dine with the best the west has ever offered, and 2. so they can crush their own extremist who will turn on them just as soon as they achieve global station. The nut bags in Hammas and Al Qaeda should be more worried about Iran....than about the U.S.


The Emperor

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Interesting take on the topic Emperor. Welcome aboard, and keep posting... :asian:

 

[bignick]

From talking with Koreans, yes, they are supposed to be taller than most Asians due to their descent, but this has been suppressed by poor nutrition and lifestyle.

 

[terryl965]

This converstation is about the origin of TKD not how tall are Koreans, Please can we get back to topic.
Thanks
Terry

PS TKD was formed in Korea? right?
Terry

 

[Pooja Gulati]

It depends on who you talk to. South Korean apologists will insist that the art is thousands of years old.



It tends to be overstated.



The same people who say that also deride all forms of TMA. TKD's not unique in that respect.

I don't think that any particular martial discipline should be touted as THE most effective martial art...but it's a shame that the "real" taekwondo seems to have vanished.

I don’t agree with this notion.

 

[Balrog]

very interesting information. I had no idea that Tae Kwon Do was not actually an art until 1955.

Korean manuscripts have been discovered that date back to the 700s or so that show martial arts techniques. Most Korean martial artists were killed off by the Japanese when they occupied Korea from 1910 to 1945. Therefore, the primary martial arts being taught were Japanese.

The new country of South Korea tried to unify all the martial arts, both traditional Korean and Japanese, into a unified system that was named Taekwondo. So TKD as we know it today has existed since 1956 (IIRC), but it does have a lineage dating back many centuries.

 

[Haruhiko]

I haven't look throught the whole thread to see if this topic has been discussed but I was just curious on the origin of Tae Kwon Do, more specifically, why it was originally created, what was its purpose at the time it came about? I've heard rumors that it was created when Samuri would come in on there horses, chopping of heads and they devised a way to kick them off of there horses. obviously there would be more to that, but is there any truth to that sort of story, since people tend to associate Tae Kwon Do with all the high flying kicks?

There's evidence of indigenous proto-martial arts that seem to be the ancestors of modern TKD dating back more than 2,000 years (some stances and especially evidence of hand-to-hand combat; not much in regards to kicks at all until about the 1100s or so).

Modern TKD is like an amalgam of Japanese Okinawan karate, northern style Kung Fu, and what was left of the indigenous martial arts that never came to be standardised or documented as well as, say, the Japanese did for their systems. A major reason for this is because they barely had time to establish, in peacetime, lasting schools. Thanks Mongolia!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

There's evidence of indigenous proto-martial arts that seem to be the ancestors of modern TKD dating back more than 2,000 years (some stances and especially evidence of hand-to-hand combat; not much in regards to kicks at all until about the 1100s or so).

Modern TKD is like an amalgam of Japanese Okinawan karate, northern style Kung Fu, and what was left of the indigenous martial arts that never came to be standardised or documented as well as, say, the Japanese did for their systems. A major reason for this is because they barely had time to establish, in peacetime, lasting schools. Thanks Mongolia!

There's likely evidence of proto-martial arts from whatever combat occurred in Korea pre-modern era. But the idea that is specifically related to TKD is much more dubious. There's only so many ways to move the human body, so some stances are bound to overlap, but it's pretty clear where TKD takes its roots from (90% shotokan).

 

[HighKick]

There's likely evidence of proto-martial arts from whatever combat occurred in Korea pre-modern era. But the idea that is specifically related to TKD is much more dubious. There's only so many ways to move the human body, so some stances are bound to overlap, but it's pretty clear where TKD takes its roots from (90% shotokan).

I don't think you can specifically say Shotokan, but it is hard to argue the strong influence from both Japan and China.
In no way to I buy TKD is 2,000 years old, and I have been doing it since 1984 under a Korean GM who is a professor of history, specifically Asian history and geography.

 

[Haruhiko]

In no way to I buy TKD is 2,000 years old

Some historians, and particularly those tied to the WTF and associated bodies, have a tendency to use Taekkyeon and Subak as the foundation of this theory.

To support this, they then revise the history of the formation of Taekkyeon back to the Three Kingdoms period (with some solid evidence, but remains contested admittedly). Subak apparently has more evidence linking it back earlier than Taekkyeon, which is why the two are lumped together as a sort of two-pronged approach at evaluating the ancestry of modern TKD.

There are reasons for this, including marketing, validity in the eyes of classical martial authorities, and probably most influential is the fact that Korea after many wars had struggled with a sense of cultural heritage or identity - using TKD of the 20th century to act as a sort of "inheritor" of the older Korean martial arts, despite the aforementioned classical arts still being practised today.

Remember, the South Korean army (still does?) or at least did enforce modern TKD as a basis for their non-weapons martial curriculum. This was a calculated endeavour to entice a sense of national pride, regardless of how ineffectual it might be in modern warfare CQC.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Korean manuscripts have been discovered that date back to the 700s or so that show martial arts techniques. Most Korean martial artists were killed off by the Japanese when they occupied Korea from 1910 to 1945. Therefore, the primary martial arts being taught were Japanese.

The new country of South Korea tried to unify all the martial arts, both traditional Korean and Japanese, into a unified system that was named Taekwondo. So TKD as we know it today has existed since 1956 (IIRC), but it does have a lineage dating back many centuries.

1. Generally accepted date is April 11, 1955 there is a photo of meeting of the naming committee published in a newspaper but some question as to whether the date in that item is April 11, 1955.

2, The romanization of the name was Taekwon-Do, with a new system about 18 years later using Taekwondo.

3. Creating a single uniform system had been done before by the likes of Kano and Funakoshi.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I don't think you can specifically say Shotokan, but it is hard to argue the strong influence from both Japan and China.
In no way to I buy TKD is 2,000 years old, and I have been doing it since 1984 under a Korean GM who is a professor of history, specifically Asian history and geography.

Certainly TK-D and Shotokan share the same roots. No mystery there since General Choi's 1965 text which I think is the first text in English for Tk-D references the Shorin and Shorei systems including patterns from the systems with Shorin being the Okinawan derivation of Shaolin.

 

[HighKick]

Certainly TK-D and Shotokan share the same roots. No mystery there since General Choi's 1965 text which I think is the first text in English for Tk-D references the Shorin and Shorei systems including patterns from the systems with Shorin being the Okinawan derivation of Shaolin.

This is not in question at all. When you combine Choi's history with the documented histories of the Kwans, it seems apparent they were influenced from many different regions and 'styles'. I use style loosely since there were not that many organized styles back then.
Since I am MDK, I am more familiar with its history. If is very clear GM Hwang Kee spent time forced, and unforced under Chinese influence and trained in Kung Fu, which shows up in some of the traditional MDK movements.

 

[Earl Weiss]

This is not in question at all. When you combine Choi's history with the documented histories of the Kwans, it seems apparent they were influenced from many different regions and 'styles'. I use style loosely since there were not that many organized styles back then.
Since I am MDK, I am more familiar with its history. If is very clear GM Hwang Kee spent time forced, and unforced under Chinese influence and trained in Kung Fu, which shows up in some of the traditional MDK movements.

I thought GM Hwang Kee rejected the "TKD" (In whatever form) moniker for his system. IIRC another person on this forum indicated although he trains MDK the group he is affiliated with uses that moniker . Do you belong to a faction that does the same?

 

[HighKick]

I thought GM Hwang Kee rejected the "TKD" (In whatever form) moniker for his system. IIRC another person on this forum indicated although he trains MDK the group he is affiliated with uses that moniker . Do you belong to a faction that does the same?

He did change the name of his system to Soo Bahk Do later in his tenure. By that time MDK had already started to split between Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do. Our GM was with Kee early enough to never really make that distinction, but did/does call our MDK TKD. I suppose you can say potato/potatoe.

 

[Earl Weiss]

He did change the name of his system to Soo Bahk Do later in his tenure. By that time MDK had already started to split between Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do. Our GM was with Kee early enough to never really make that distinction, but did/does call our MDK TKD. I suppose you can say potato/potatoe.

interesting - the stuff I have read was that Hwang Kee never employed the TKD moniker, and some indications that he was really opposed to it. If you have any sources about his adoption of that moniker I would be interested to see it. Because of what I have read I always felt referring to MDK people as TKD people might be looked upon as an insult. Hwang Kee - Wikipedia

 

[Dirty Dog]

interesting - the stuff I have read was that Hwang Kee never employed the TKD moniker, and some indications that he was really opposed to it. If you have any sources about his adoption of that moniker I would be interested to see it. Because of what I have read I always felt referring to MDK people as TKD people might be looked upon as an insult. Hwang Kee - Wikipedia

It was originally called Tang Soo Do. If the TKD label was ever applied, it would have been during the brief period in which he was involved with the unification movement. I do not think it was used by him, but cannot prove it. There are certainly branches of the MDK that did/do classify themselves as TKD stylists.

As far as insults go, it seems a non-issue. Just call them whatever they want to be called.