Doc
Senior Master
Uh, excuse me?
Question About Kenpo Against Resistance (again...)
- Thread starter SteffenBerg
- Start date
Uh, excuse me?
yorkshirelad
Master Black Belt
The trick is for an instructor to be able to gauge what a student needs. People train in Martial Arts for many reasons.
I have a friend in Dublin called Joe. He's probably in his early sixties now, but when I was training there it was about ten years ago he was in his early fifties.
Joe had bad nerves and was on meds. His wife was a total jackass and left him. What's more, his kids had no respect for him and refused to see him. Right after his wife left, he moved back in with his mum in Drumcondra and the week before christmas of that year, she died. He went into a depression and on many occasions contemplated suicide.
Now Joe had one love left in life , motion Kenpo and his prized possession was a polaroid photo of he and Ed Parker. He carried the thing in his breast pocket everywhere. He'd only met Mr Parker once, but it was enough for him.
Joe has never and will never be able to fight. He just doesn't have it in him. He's gentle, fragile and likeable. He was at orange belt for years, he just couldn't remember the techniques, but it was important to him that he did. Although he found it hard to get out of bed in the morning, he would come down, everyday to the studio to learn. Now the rest of us, being young and healthy, had the capacity to retain information and we would learn all sets, techniques and forms because the syllabus required it, but all we cared about in the end was sparring and getting the better of eachother (in a brotherly way). When Joe walked in however everyone would stop what they were doing, just to help him learn his techniques. No question, if Joe needed private instruction everyone, without exception would offer. He lived and breathed for motion Kenpo. So I suppose you can say, motion Kenpo in effect saved his life and brought out the best in most of us.
Now in our studio we had Black Belts in EPAK, Doce Pares, Sin Moo Hapkido, Judo and Mugendo (kickboxing) and everyone would learn from each other. The sparring was all kickboxing (continuous) and the escrima teacher would add sensitivity drills, hubud, box drill, punio sumbrada and others to our kenpo to create a greater degree of spontaneity. Without doubt, we loved our training and Joe loved his. He was only interested in motion Kenpo and it worked for him. It gave him something to live for.
You train how you want to train. Good for you Atlanta. But just because the way you train is right for you, doesn't make it so for everyone else. Mr Parker may have gone the MMA route, then again, he may not have. Noone truly knows, because unfortunately he can't tell us. Then again, if Mr Parker went the MMA route, that does not mean to say that everyone would need, or want to go with him.
I don't know about you, but self defense to me these days is more preventative. Gone are the days of fights after a skin full of yorkshire bitter outside Ritz's night club. A group of us, in the pouring rain, kicking the **** out of eachother with torn Ben Sherman shirts, just waiting for some pour bastard to fall so that he'd get a face full of Docs. No, my defense these days is making sure the doors are locked as I snuggle with the missus on the couch at night. Everyone else can be well 'ard. I'd rather just train to be healthy and happy.
Happy street fightin' Atlanta.
Dom
Thanks to Yorkshirelad; out front person to person thanks, not electronic thanks. While this is slightly off point, I post it because I'm one of those folks who now train for a different set of reasons.
While I'm still not too fragile, I'm closing in on it, due to age. I'm from the Chinese Kenpo era, did my hard contact back then, got many lumps and cuts, including a dislocated patella, broken nose, broken toes, and dislocated fingers when I tried the "poster Kenpo poses" while hard sparring (everybody has to learn the hard way sooner or later; for me it was sooner, thank God) but now I'm in it for the exercise and socialization. Just for that, and not much else.
I can hear the gasps as I write this, from those still trying to be "bad guys". But here's the thing: I like the movement, and I like talking to the moms and kids and would be warriors, and certainly the instructors, partly because I have some perspective. Some of these folks have become friends.
I'm not writing this to prove anything, and I grasp the original point in this thread, but there are more reasons to practice, as Yorshirelad has wisely pointed out, so the feebs you see flailing around out there, without an apparent clue about "resistance" may in fact just be there for the pleasure of it all, not the more serious aspect, and at this point I don't see anything wrong with that.
While I'm still not too fragile, I'm closing in on it, due to age. I'm from the Chinese Kenpo era, did my hard contact back then, got many lumps and cuts, including a dislocated patella, broken nose, broken toes, and dislocated fingers when I tried the "poster Kenpo poses" while hard sparring (everybody has to learn the hard way sooner or later; for me it was sooner, thank God
) but now I'm in it for the exercise and socialization. Just for that, and not much else. I can hear the gasps as I write this, from those still trying to be "bad guys". But here's the thing: I like the movement, and I like talking to the moms and kids and would be warriors, and certainly the instructors, partly because I have some perspective. Some of these folks have become friends.
I'm not writing this to prove anything, and I grasp the original point in this thread, but there are more reasons to practice, as Yorshirelad has wisely pointed out, so the feebs you see flailing around out there, without an apparent clue about "resistance" may in fact just be there for the pleasure of it all, not the more serious aspect, and at this point I don't see anything wrong with that.
MattJ
Brown Belt
Nothing wrong with that. If one is honest in their expectations, and the instructor is similarly honest, it's all good.
Good posts! I agree that we can't create the 'real fight' feeling, but with the right mindset and training, we can come close. I say this because Peyton Quinn does this, so it is possible, again, to a point. During my lessons with my teacher, we regularly do some padded attacker drills, as well as spontaneous reaction drills. We do the required techs. as well as random attacks. I find, more times than not, I'm not doing the set techniques, but ideas/concepts from them. This works for me, due to the fact that I'm not thinking about Delayed Sword, 5 Swords, Attacking Mace, etc., but instead, reacting to whats coming at me, and yes, there are times, that I get hit, times that I have to change midstream, what I'm doing, and this, IMO, is what really matters about the training. This keeps you more on your toes, because you dont know whats coming.
I do feel that this training needs to be introduced slowly at first, gradually building up. This applies to not only the techs. but also to sparring. If people aren't used to the contact in the dojo, God help them in the real world, if they need to use their training.
I do feel that this training needs to be introduced slowly at first, gradually building up. This applies to not only the techs. but also to sparring. If people aren't used to the contact in the dojo, God help them in the real world, if they need to use their training.
Atlanta-Kenpo
Blue Belt
Hey Doc,
Looks like I got your attention! I should not have said "all the 1st generation instructors" but rather many of the 1st generation folks.
However, I do believe that you agree about what I am saying correct?
When you going to come hang out with Kevin & me out here?
Looks like I got your attention! I should not have said "all the 1st generation instructors" but rather many of the 1st generation folks.
However, I do believe that you agree about what I am saying correct?
When you going to come hang out with Kevin & me out here?
Doc
Senior Master
Unfortunately I have to agree. Tell Kev I said "Hey!" Work and a new grandson will keep me close to home this year. Maybe next sir.
OP
SteffenBerg
White Belt
- Thread Starter
- #28
Hi Marlon,
Thanks for the invite.
To answer your question, I look at obtaining such equipment (i.e. FIST gear) as investing in ones education...
Where I trained, the instructor / school had invested in a couple of sets of FIST gear for this type of training. And some of the students got together and scraped together additional funds to buy another suit. Some others ended up buying their own gear as well...
As for finding people willing to get knocked out...
I think that those who participate in these classes are people who are there to learn how to defend themselves. AAnd I think there's a certain level of understanding that if you decide to take up a self-defense oriented art that you will get hit... and hit hard (once they have gained the necessary skill sets).
All the best,
Stef
OP
SteffenBerg
White Belt
- Thread Starter
- #29
Having had almost a decade of training in Kyokushinkai karate I can appreciate the physicality when practicing Kenpo techniques (particularly when practicing with higher ranked students). And after each class I'm pretty much guaranteed to come home with bumps and bruises.
But I guess my point is that doing the techniques "full force" when you pretty much know what's coming is very different than responding to someone who is completely committed in taking you down where you have no clue about what attacks are coming and where they don't stop with one punch or kick... (they just keep coming). Without some level of protective gear (at least head gear with face guard / eye guard, mma gloves, groin protection and chest protector) it would be irresponsible to train in the manner I've described (in my humble opinion).
Best regards,
Stef
Xinglu
Black Belt
EXACTLY!!!!!
Teach the principle, the show techniques that utilize said principle.
Kenpoka should not be limited to or by techniques when entering combat, they should instead enter into combat using principles. No fight is cookie cutter, and I have never heard or seen a legit Kenpo Instructor say it is. they apply principles and those principles form techniques that are unique to you opponent.
What used to and IMHO still should separate a kenpoka from everyone else is their ability to adapt and overcome any combat situation put in front of them.
marlon
Master Black Belt
Having had almost a decade of training in Kyokushinkai karate I can appreciate the physicality when practicing Kenpo techniques (particularly when practicing with higher ranked students). And after each class I'm pretty much guaranteed to come home with bumps and bruises.
But I guess my point is that doing the techniques "full force" when you pretty much know what's coming is very different than responding to someone who is completely committed in taking you down where you have no clue about what attacks are coming and where they don't stop with one punch or kick... (they just keep coming). Without some level of protective gear (at least head gear with face guard / eye guard, mma gloves, groin protection and chest protector) it would be irresponsible to train in the manner I've described (in my humble opinion).
Best regar
Stef
What is fun is laying into someone who is attacking and does not know kempo. They get....a little startled...
Marlon
Milt G.
Purple Belt
Hello,
I agree... You cannot learn too much about "interactive" self defense in "FIST" or similar attire. That will only teach you how to hit a moving target with force.
In Kenpo, well most Kenpo, targeting should be finer and timed for target acquisition. The gear is too big and combersome to practice that effectively, IMO. It is good for practicing power strikes to large targets, though.
True, again, one should get a feel for the "discomfort" of interactive practice with a partner. You have to learn how much is just enough, etc. The suit only teaches you to get hot and sweaty quickly.
Thank you,
Milt G.
