Holes in kenpo

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by pete
Mike,

I wholehearted respect your right to disagree and keep your Kenpo as-is...many good/great martial artists do. however, please realize that you'd also be disagreeing with Messrs. Whitson, Wheeler, and Trejo. I recently attended their seminars at the Boston IKCs where practices from Philipino, Russian, and Traditional Chinese martial arts were applied to Kenpo.

Pete.

I think it's good to teach info from other systems, I would just prefer to keep it labelled as such. Thanks for the discussion!

:asian:

 

[dcence]

My position on this "holes" argument is that Robert is right and OFK is right. Robert is right on a CONCEPTUAL level; OFK is right on an APPLICATIONS level

Robert is right in that the Kenpo principles, concepts and such are broad enough to relate to and understand the effectiveness and usefulness of the other arts' curriculum. Roberts approach is on a CONCEPTUAL level.

OFK is right in that the EPAK system or any other system does not and cannot teach every aspect to which those principles and concepts apply. OFK's approach is on an APPLICATIONS level.

Groundfighting -- this uses principles and concepts of leverage, borrowed force, marriage of gravity, rotational momentum etc. These are all CONCEPTS. But the BJJ'ers are better at rolling around on the ground (generally) than Kenpo'ers because they choose to focus on that APPLICATION of those concepts.

Stickfighting -- the same principles of physics apply CONCEPTUALLY whether it is an FMA'er or Kenpo'er wielding the sticks. FMA'ers are generally better at APPLYING those CONCEPTS than Kenpo'ers because they focus on it.

The fact of the matter is you won't be as good on the ground as a BJJ'er or as good with a stick as an FMA'er unless you spend the same amount of time as they do APPLYING those CONCEPTS in those respective specialties in the Martial Arts, no matter how long you have been practicing the stand-up empty hand techniques of Kenpo.

Even though the PRINCIPLES of Kenpo are broad enough to be all inclusive on a CONCEPTUAL level, the curriculum is not broad enough to include all APPLICATIONS of those principles which are focused on by other arts. And that is the KEY difference in this whole debate.

I don't think anyone can point out a principle, move, concept, -- whatever -- that is contained in another martial art, that I can't find in Kenpo. But I believe they can show me an APPLICATION of that concept that the curriculum does not contain. But I am willing to be shown differently and believe that would be a good exercise.

Derek

 

[MisterMike]

This is a picture of sankajo. (pardon the image quality) The aim is to torque the hand with the elbow above it, or forearm in a vertical position. To alleviate the pain, the opponent eventually rises onto his toes and steps backwards.

I have not seen this in any Kenpo technique in the 32 technique curriculum or the forms.

Granted, if you were to lower the arm and straighten it, you have Crossing Talon. But they are not the same. This moves the opponent up, while Crossing Talon brings the opponent down.

There may be something similar in Lock Flow, which are drills some Kenpo schools teach, but it is not Kenpo.

When you have a mish-mash of techniques and call it all one thing, you lose the History and Roots of the technique. It would be like saying Kenpo is the origin of the "Karate Chop." Kenpo may use the weapon, but it certainly wasn't the origins. But as far as I can tell, the lock and arm position shown here is not in the original Kenpo system.

It's not to say there are not Kenpo principles that could lead you to this, but what are the chances? Like dcence said, even if you find it, if you don't practice it, what good is it? Kenpo is not the be-all end-all of Martial Arts.

 

[pete]

hey mike...

thank you for continuing this discussion and for the visual aids!

this is found in several of the techniques we practice in our curriculum (170 techniques to Black, mix of old and new Parker systems, all techniques taught with full extensions)... how about:

Gift (against an aggressive handshake)
Desperate Falcons (against double wrist grabs)
Glancing Spear (left wrist grab from the left side)

and for fun, we use Captured Twigs to counter this move.

pete.

 

[kenpo12]

Mike,

As Pete stated that tech can be found in American kenpo, mainly in the extensions. Funny how so many people think the extensions are nothing but fluff.

BTW Mr. Ence,

Thank you for so eloquently putting what I have been trying to say all along. I'm just not real great at putting into text.

 

[Shiatsu]

Very well said Mr. Ence as always. You must of had/have a great instructor.

Mike what style is that. It looks like a hapkido top, but it doesn't look like hapkido with the hakima and all.:asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Derek: You are a true peace maker. When you cut through my tiresome rhetoric and really listen to what Robert is saying, you are correct. We are both at least partially right.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Kenpo12
Mike,

As Pete stated that tech can be found in American kenpo, mainly in the extensions. Funny how so many people think the extensions are nothing but fluff.

BTW Mr. Ence,

Thank you for so eloquently putting what I have been trying to say all along. I'm just not real great at putting into text.

Mr. Ence:
Even though the PRINCIPLES of Kenpo are broad enough to be all inclusive on a CONCEPTUAL level, the curriculum is not broad enough to include all APPLICATIONS of those principles which are focused on by other arts. And that is the KEY difference in this whole debate.

I don't think anyone can point out a principle, move, concept, -- whatever -- that is contained in another martial art, that I can't find in Kenpo. But I believe they can show me an APPLICATION of that concept that the curriculum does not contain.

This is all I was trying to say, albeit not quite as eloquent. Mr. Billings I am sorry I made you mad, but if you don't mind which part pissed you off?

I don't like the discussion of HOLES, but it is a term I went along with simply because this is how it was initially addressed. EPAK hits just about every topic in some form or another, but as I said earlier and still believe, EPAK is not developed in certain areas and some of the answers may need to be updated a little, filled in with a little more information, or changed completely.

For instance Mr. Ence mentioned that Tripping arrow works for a mounted opponent and it does, but there are subtle changes that need to be made to the technique to keep you from getting into a worse situation than a front mount. When you bridge and roll the guy if you extend your arm right arm up to his face you can easily be arm barred. Now since most of us aren't worried about sport let me point out that under the same situation if you extend your arm and roll, your opponent need only to straighten his back, change his ride a little, and pass your right arm across his face and down to your left side; now your screwed!!!! You are either laying on one arm with the other arm being checked or you are on your stomach with your attacker on your back. Not very good positions to be in, but avoidable if you are taught the correct way to do this technique on the ground, which is not to simply do Tripping Arrow as if standing up.

As for Robert's comment about the Universal Pattern, sure the universal pattern contains any and all paths of motion that an individual could take especially when you look at the 3-d image. So Robert, are you suggesting that you could get out of any position just because you know the Universal pattern? Surely not. Each technique, position, drill, etc. requires practice and study in order to become proficient. These aren't subjects where you can infer untested knowledge and expect it to work. At least that's not what I want from an instructor.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

Oh yeah--I forgot. How's about going back to my posts and find me where it is that I wrote the stuff that you're attributing to me, MJS? Or the quotes in which I went to other arts and said, "All very well, but what YOU guys don't know is...?"

Rob- For fear of opening a huge can of worms, I actually did go back a few pages in the General SD thread. The topics unreality based SD (pg.5) and Lights Out (pg.9) have some of the examples that you're looking for.

Mike

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
Very well said Mr. Ence as always. You must of had/have a great instructor.

Mike what style is that. It looks like a hapkido top, but it doesn't look like hapkido with the hakima and all.:asian:

It is AikiJutsu. Which is comprised of three levels, Aiki-Jujutsu, Aiki-Jutsu and Aiki no Jutsu.

The first is more physical strength, the second involves more timing, and the last primarily timing.

The uniform I prefer is the black Judo top with a cotton hakama. There are lighter weights you can wear though.

I'd be curious to see what extensions in Kenpo use that type of lock. I went through the 32 system, so there were 32 extensions and none of them had it. No, I don't think they are fluff.

There is a similar move in (Gift of Destiny) i think. IT may look the same, but feeling will tell you the difference, I guarrronteee.

Respectfully,

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sorry, "MJS," but I can't find the threads. And I could be wrong, but I don't recall ever posting on the, "General Self Defense," threads--don't recall seeing them before, in fact. Would you mind either a) more specificity, or b) posting the quotes, or c) arranging for my long-term care in a home?

As for that lock...uh...in terms of APPLICATIONS, the posters who noted its appearance in several of the extensions are quite right. Circling Wing would bee my fave...but it also looks a hell of a lot like the base technique, Twisted Rod...especially since that takedown involves, "uprooting," the offender...

Speaking CONCEPTUALLY, I'd argue that changing the plane, angle, targets, applications, etc., happens all the time in kenpo. The "move," is learned, and the system taks you through a series of possible applications, and then (hopefully, but I'm a bit of a thickie) you start devising your own applications.

Oh yeah, I actually didn't think the mod warning applied to me. I was just gettin' ticked in general...

 

[kenpo12]

MisterMike,

If you can't find that move in any of the extensions try looking at Long Form 3, trust me it's in there.

Matt

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Sorry, "MJS," but I can't find the threads. And I could be wrong, but I don't recall ever posting on the, "General Self Defense," threads--don't recall seeing them before, in fact.

If the reference is to the General Self-Defense forum, note that a number of threads were moved there from other places when it was created.

Oh yeah, I actually didn't think the mod warning applied to me. I was just gettin' ticked in general...

In-thread warnings are always directed at a general audience.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Sorry, "MJS," but I can't find the threads. And I could be wrong, but I don't recall ever posting on the, "General Self Defense," threads--don't recall seeing them before, in fact. Would you mind either a) more specificity, or b) posting the quotes, or c) arranging for my long-term care in a home?

OOpppsss---Rob, my bad. They are in the Gen. MA talk. Here are a few of the quotes: There are a few from the Trad or MMA thread also!

what's all this "reality," we keep hearing so much about?

I apologize. But these fantasies of achieving invulnerability...not to mention the fact that if you train well, you shouldn't notice whether or not the lights are on...and the fact that a class or two with the lights out, when in your heart you KNOW you're pretty safe won't suffice...

First, these posts suggest that at some point, all situations will have been covered and the practitioner will become invulnerable.

Second--for all the claims of practicality--you are in far more danger while driving than you will ever be "on the street," unless you've deliberately chosen to walk in way over your head.

It's fine--even great to train all which ways. But the claims that it's necessary, that it's practical...that's the movies. That's "Bloodsport."

And gutting martial arts in the pursuit of some dream of perfect completeness and efficiency...well, I'vee already posted enough on this.

It seems perfectly reasonable, to me, to adopt these methods of learning to fight. After all, they are perfectly in keeping with the rack of fantasies that the rest of our culture promotes, and they certainly will promote an efficient fighting. Or in other words, it's exactly the same issue as "Jurassic Park."

Oh, and incidentally, folks like Matt Thornton have the luxury of teaching very athletic students who want to fight. Their success doesn't necessarily say a thing about the superiority of their methods of teaching.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by dcence
Stickfighting -- the same principles of physics apply CONCEPTUALLY whether it is an FMA'er or Kenpo'er wielding the sticks. FMA'ers are generally better at APPLYING those CONCEPTS than Kenpo'ers because they focus on it.

Well, that is true as far as it goes--we all hit with the end of the stick most of the time, not the middle ("belly")--but in addition to physics, there are strategy choices. Will you design a system that emphasizes largo mano (long range techniques)? Or will it be a close-in system? Will you leave a lot of punyo (butt end of the stick) for close-in trapping, or very little so you have more range? Some systems focus on getting in so close that they can use stick grappling techniques (like the Dog Brothers) and others prefer to emphasize the non-stick hand's ability to control the opponenet's stick hand.

Is there one best strategy? I'd say No. Do all chess GrandMasters use the same opening, or more generally the same style of play? There's a paper-scissors-rock issue of how styles fare against one anotehr that, in my opinion, defeats the idea of a "best" style.

I think that the physics and the concepts aren't enough. It's analogous to knowing the rules and general principles of chess. You must impose a strategy on them to do something. Every martial art does this differently. Some like to enter and close-in, like JKD or grappling systems; others like to stay far away, like TKD. Some like to finish with takedowns, othgers with a barrage of blows. Those are strategy choices that allow one to make a very different art from the same understanding of principles--like two (teams of) engineers who, when told to design a car, use the same physics rules, the same general engineering concepts and principles, but find different solutions because of design choices made along teh way.

So, I don't think wyou go far enough in what you say. Even after that, there are still fairly arbitrary design choices to be made, and the paper-scissors-rock aspect of things means if you orient to defeat type B attacks, type C attacks will be more likely to get you, and vice versa.

 

[kenpo12]

arnisador,

I hear ya but you are mixing up styles with systems. There is a huge difference between a system and a style.

 

[pete]

this thread is getting crowded and you my have missed my examples, so i'l repost (or should i say riposte

I'd be curious to see what extensions in Kenpo use that type of lock -Mr Mike.

Gift (against an aggressive handshake)

Desperate Falcons (against double wrist grabs)

Glancing Spear (left wrist grab from the left side)

and for fun, we use Captured Twigs to counter this move

pete.

 

[Michael Billings]

The lock you have posted is one I use in Gripping Talon. It is not rotational, nor does it rely on pronation or supination - but works on the vertical plane if the thumb of the opponent is pointing down. If I passed underneath their left arm, I end up in the lock you are demonstrating, or the throw. Hapkido, Aki-Jitsu, Dai-jitsu, Wally Jay small cirlce ... it is all good to me, with lots of applications of levers and fulcrums, which is how I interpret in my Kenpo.

Is this an insert, not unless you were taught it as an insert?

Great Picture and application.

Oss,
-Michael

 

[MisterMike]

OK - I saw those. We didn't do the newer extensions in my system. Just the 32 from the old Orange list.

I'd be curious to see them sometime though....

 

[MisterMike]

Thanks Mr. Billings. Always a good exchange on here when we finally get to Martial Art substance! :asian: