Question About Kenpo Against Resistance (again...)

[SteffenBerg]

Before I throw my question out there, I'll give you a bit of background before people go crying "foul" and say I'm a troll...

I came back to Kenpo last year after an 8 year hiatus where I took the time to study other arts (mainly JKD / Muay Thai and Chen Tai Ji along with some other stuff).

I decided to make a move back to Kenpo because I like the people and the training. And having studied Dr. Chapel's posts and footage during my absence (among others) it's inspired me to look more deeply into what Kenpo has to offer (since a lot of it has resonated with me). So, with that said I'm just going to throw this question out there:

Why do so few Kenpo practitioners use Kenpo in a fight?

I'm not talking about techniques here...

What I'm talking about is the inability for many practitioners to fight using Kenpo principles in a free fighting environment?

Let me explain, most sparring I've seen in Kenpo schools is of the "tip tap" variaty where they stop you before you even get a chance to have a serious exchange.

Now I can understand the "commercial" undertones of teaching this type of sparring, but with Kenpo touting itself as a "self-defense" art you'd think more practitioners would train and focus on being able to use what they've been taught under a more "intense situation" without resorting to "kickboxing" (or worse... where all technique goes out the window).

Anytime I've brought up this topic there's always something about Kenpo and it's techniques are too dangerous for this sort of thing etc.

I call BS.

If that's the case, then at least suit up in "FIST gear" and let it fly a bit and see if they can actually use Kenpo principles (or techniques) under pressure. My guess is that the majority of students will fail, even if they've been training for a couple of years.

I know Kenpo has become an art for the masses, but if we're going to call it "sciene of self-defense" it's our responsibility to ensure that we CAN actually apply Kenpo principles and move like a Kenpo practitioner against "free attacks" against people really coming at you...

I'd be interested to hear the perspective of Dr. Chapel and others (and expect to be put in my place )

/Stef

P.S. I've done quite a bit of this sort of training over the last several years (using FIST gear amongst other things) and I can tell you that my experience has been that most people cannot apply what they've learned against someone coming at them full force with one attack after another (even if it's somewhat pre-arranged) unless they've become de-sensitized (from repeated exposure to this type of training).

 

[Carol]

But Kenpoists are set up to spar like kickboxers. You have a system like Kenpo which can defend agasinst bear hugs, attacks from behind, then you put these guys/gals to a test by bundling them up in gear, including thick gloves that take sensitivity away. Then they are positioned to stand, facing either other, from a distance of about 10 feet with a ref close by.

 

[marlon]

My 2 cents is that simply enough most people do not train against a resisting committed attacker. Strng basics of proper body alignment is needed first, then practice and some understanding of the movements and then testing it against a resisting motivated attacker. This mean that the person in the role of attacker is willing to sacrifice themslves in order to aid the other person's training. They cannot cringe and go down the instant that the defender starts to respond nor can they give only uncommitted movements as in the point sparring thingy. There are many willing to bang on someone else but fewer who are willing to take the other role. Where I train we after learning the ideal phase of the technique we add on the attacker not stopping until you make them stop. Slow at first and gradually bring up the resistence and intensity. We train a great deal of reaction drills where the attacker comes at you hard and fast and you defend. The lower belts often throw kempo out the window and just hit and run then we guide the students into using certain principles of kempo and then we push everyonein the end to use the techniques and forms or at least relavent parts of techniques and forms with the emphasis on proper alignment and mechanics. Point sparring is a great speed exercise... advanced tag but it is not kempo and doing it often will erode your kempo skills. In the end we do our best barring picking random fights. The thing is most people trainng or not do not want to get hurt or show up at school or work with broken ribs and black eyes so we do our best with what we have. With the system we have plus the reaction drill and the resisting attacker drills the heavy emphasis on proper mechanics aCnd how kempo teaches survive the initial attack I am comfortable and confidant that we train in a manner that our kempo will come as needed and work
that being said I too stand with you awaiting to be corrected
respectfully,
Marlon

 

[K831]

I think there are two reasons;

1.) Read Carol's post. It is spot on. Kenpo is a SD art. It is not a "ring art". While it has it's offensive freestyle techniques (most do not train these) much of the system is designed to deal with getting blindsided unexpectedly from head on or at an odd angle (from directly behind or off to the side). It shines when you are minding your own business at the ATM and someone jumps you. It isn't so much a "meet me at the flagpole" and square off art (although it can be effectively tailored as such with a skilled and experienced teacher).

2.) I think your post answered it's own question. The art got popularized, its founder passed on and it went the route of the McDojo. Many, many crappy Kenpo schools out there. And even some of the better ones in terms of proper mechanics, do not understand how to train realistically, ballistically and SPONTANEOUSLY. The result: students with good motion who can't apply it for real.

2.a) Kenpo practitioners often get what is called "analysis paralysis" wherein they hesitate because they have too many techniques and principles floating around in their heads. This happens for two reasons; you have a school to focused on moving students through a number of techniques without digging into the root of them enough, or, as you mentioned above, you have a teacher who doesn't train realistically. A boxer has a handful of punches to learn. He knows to keep his chin down, his hands up, circle, etc... much easier to ingrain, and all they do is spar and hit the pads.

Having said all this, Kenpo is my art. I am wholly wedded to it's principles and concepts and I think if taught correctly and by a skilled and insightful instructor, that it is one of the most effective SD and combat arts available. I have a lot of time in other arts, but Kenpo is my home.

 

[SteffenBerg]

I agree that combat sports are definitely not the same as self-defense. However, saying "Kenpo is a "self-defense art" so it doesn't lend itself well to the ring or suiting up and going against resistance (progressive resistance) is a cop-out at best.

I guess perhaps defining "free fighting" or "sparring" would help... since we might mean different things when we say sparring.

From the way I see it, sparring for sport (e.g. point-sparring or even combat sports) vs. sparring for self-defense purposes are two completely different things. (Fwiw, my opinion is that sparring for sport is not conducive to actual skill in self-defense and would be counter-productive to learning how to defend yourself).

Then there's also the type of sparring or free fighting where two people square off (mutually agreeing to fight like in MMA, Boxing etc.) vs. self-defense type sparring.

For me "sparring" (free flow and self-defense) is part of the training process, not a means to an end. It is in my opinion a way to train your fear reactivity / adrenal response (flinch reflex).

This type of training should be done at various speeds against progressive resistance... for instance like slow movement sparring (without changing physics, i.e. track someones head by changing your force vector in the middle of your strike, which would be impossible at full speed); free-flow sparring in an MMA type environment with striking, clinching and grappling if appropriate; to full contact training wearing something like Tony Blauer's 'High Gear' or FIST gear.

Again, this type of training should not replace your other training (including solo forms and technique training), but should be an important aspect of our training.

Here's an example of what I mean by 'self-defense type sparring':

Over the last several years, When training for "realistic" self-defense, we frequently simulated potential 'self-defense scenarios'... like being surprised while getting out of a car to being bum-rushed by somebody while walking through a door etc.

(By the way, for this type of training you "MUST" suit up in protective gear, we used "High Gear" for those who may be familiar (which is a body armor along with a facemask / helmet), as it can be rather dangerous. Tony Blauer's High Gear allows for quite a bit of mobility considering you're covered from head to toe.)

In any event, let me give you an example of what these simulations might look like (an actual event). One of the scenarios we often introduce is a simulation where the "victim" is standing by an ATM (ok, so we pretended it's an ATM).

The simulation started with the would-be attacker walking up to the victim. After a verbal exchange between the two (the attacker was distracting him) another guy, the accomplice, came up behind the victim. Who by the way was unaware this was going to happen (in other words it was not pre-arranged).

Now this is where things got interesting...

The accomplice rushed the victim for a takedown from behind. (Keep in mind all the participants are wearing "armor" and this is 'anything goes' type of training). Somehow the victim managed to free himself (it wasn't pretty but resembled one of our techniques) and managed to cut the first guy off in mid-stride with a heelpalm strike to the helmet (it was to his jaw and knocked the guy out cold for a few seconds)... and at the same time managed to distract the accomplice enough to get out of the 'area' (which is what we always suggest in a self-defense scenario).

As a side note, I found it interesting that contrary to popular belief (in particular by the BJJ crowd) our simulations only went to the ground about 30% of the time...

As you can see, this has very little to do with point-sparring, yet it is sparring nontheless. I personally feel that if someone is serious about DEFENDING themselves, they ought to take the proper precautionary measures and train to defend themselves by training alive against fully resistant opponents using the technology available (the protective armor and training methods) to its fullest extent.

Be safe,
Stef

 

[marlon]

You are fortunate to have the gear and the fellow students that you have. Any time you want to road trip to Montreal bring the gear and some of those guys. It will be fun and intersting and dinner will be on me. Btw what would you do if you did not have the
money for the gear and could not find people willing to get knocked out to train with?

Marlon

 

[searcher]

I just went back to Kenpo in February after a 20 year hiatus. I want to know why you are putting on FIST gear? I am notsure how many of the other Kenpoists are training, but we beat the H*** out of each other when we train and we provide as much resistance as we are capable of giving. We have never been passive in our classes, on either side. Andwe do this without gear on(except for a cup). And yes, we strike the groin in our classes.

If we find a technique is not working, we take time to find out why and fix whatever the problem is. Then we try it again. If it works, good. If it does not, we look it over again and make corrections.

IMHO, I get beat up more in my EPAK SD training then when I used to do the 50 man fight. And those guys were trying to knock me out. I guess we kinda have a Kajukenbo mindset in my Kenpo school.

 

[K831]

SteffenBerg,

Good post. Your right, the discussion is better served with the terms defined. I agree with your two definitions, or examples of sparring.

 

[celtic_crippler]

"If you leave the mats without a bruise or busted lip...you didn't learn anything." -Brint Berry

...and he meant that too.

I don't know what "kenpo" schools you're refering to, but it's not like any one I've ever stepped foot in...and there's been a few.

We "lightly" spar with no gear, with the exception of a cup and without resistance how can you possibly gauge the effectiveness of what you're doing?

I sincerely hope you are asking legitimate questions and will give you the benefit of the doubt for the moment. If you're not experiencing "resistance" and some bumps and bruises...I suggest you find another "kenpo" school 'cause that ain't like any kind of "kenpo" I've ever experienced.

 

[Tames D]

Not a Kenpo guy so I don't work out at Kenpo schools but I do work out with some Kenpo guys in our garages. Not one of em has a problem with hard contact. We only wear cups and mouthguards.

CC: Do you work out with BB?

 

[celtic_crippler]

Not a Kenpo guy so I don't work out at Kenpo schools but I do work out with some Kenpo guys in our garages. Not one of em has a problem with hard contact. We only wear cups and mouthguards.

CC: Do you work out with BB?

I've been on the mats with him a time or two, but not regularly. Just using him as an example 'cause I always remembered what he said....especially after being on the mats with him. LOL

 

[Doc]

Before I throw my question out there, I'll give you a bit of background before people go crying "foul" and say I'm a troll...

I came back to Kenpo last year after an 8 year hiatus where I took the time to study other arts (mainly JKD / Muay Thai and Chen Tai Ji along with some other stuff).

I decided to make a move back to Kenpo because I like the people and the training. And having studied Dr. Chapel's posts and footage during my absence (among others) it's inspired me to look more deeply into what Kenpo has to offer (since a lot of it has resonated with me). So, with that said I'm just going to throw this question out there:

Why do so few Kenpo practitioners use Kenpo in a fight?

I'm not talking about techniques here...

What I'm talking about is the inability for many practitioners to fight using Kenpo principles in a free fighting environment?

Let me explain, most sparring I've seen in Kenpo schools is of the "tip tap" variaty where they stop you before you even get a chance to have a serious exchange.

Now I can understand the "commercial" undertones of teaching this type of sparring, but with Kenpo touting itself as a "self-defense" art you'd think more practitioners would train and focus on being able to use what they've been taught under a more "intense situation" without resorting to "kickboxing" (or worse... where all technique goes out the window).

Anytime I've brought up this topic there's always something about Kenpo and it's techniques are too dangerous for this sort of thing etc.

I call BS.

If that's the case, then at least suit up in "FIST gear" and let it fly a bit and see if they can actually use Kenpo principles (or techniques) under pressure. My guess is that the majority of students will fail, even if they've been training for a couple of years.

I know Kenpo has become an art for the masses, but if we're going to call it "sciene of self-defense" it's our responsibility to ensure that we CAN actually apply Kenpo principles and move like a Kenpo practitioner against "free attacks" against people really coming at you...

I'd be interested to hear the perspective of Dr. Chapel and others (and expect to be put in my place )

/Stef

P.S. I've done quite a bit of this sort of training over the last several years (using FIST gear amongst other things) and I can tell you that my experience has been that most people cannot apply what they've learned against someone coming at them full force with one attack after another (even if it's somewhat pre-arranged) unless they've become de-sensitized (from repeated exposure to this type of training).

Seems to me you've got it covered pretty well. I agree with you with the exception of the "Red Man" suit. It's somewhat cumbersome and restricts movement too much for the way we train. We, simple focus on a singular physicality at a time, and when necessary utilize chest protectors for grappling assault training. Even then students really feel the contact when the "defender" is properly aligned and executes correctly. But at the same time, if you have access to one, it will definitely acclimate a student to the realities of contact in defense situations. The bulk of my guys are cops and agents so they already know.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

I agree that combat sports are definitely not the same as self-defense. However, saying "Kenpo is a "self-defense art" so it doesn't lend itself well to the ring or suiting up and going against resistance (progressive resistance) is a cop-out at best.

I guess perhaps defining "free fighting" or "sparring" would help... since we might mean different things when we say sparring.

From the way I see it, sparring for sport (e.g. point-sparring or even combat sports) vs. sparring for self-defense purposes are two completely different things. (Fwiw, my opinion is that sparring for sport is not conducive to actual skill in self-defense and would be counter-productive to learning how to defend yourself).

Then there's also the type of sparring or free fighting where two people square off (mutually agreeing to fight like in MMA, Boxing etc.) vs. self-defense type sparring.

For me "sparring" (free flow and self-defense) is part of the training process, not a means to an end. It is in my opinion a way to train your fear reactivity / adrenal response (flinch reflex).

This type of training should be done at various speeds against progressive resistance... for instance like slow movement sparring (without changing physics, i.e. track someones head by changing your force vector in the middle of your strike, which would be impossible at full speed); free-flow sparring in an MMA type environment with striking, clinching and grappling if appropriate; to full contact training wearing something like Tony Blauer's 'High Gear' or FIST gear.

Again, this type of training should not replace your other training (including solo forms and technique training), but should be an important aspect of our training.

Here's an example of what I mean by 'self-defense type sparring':

Over the last several years, When training for "realistic" self-defense, we frequently simulated potential 'self-defense scenarios'... like being surprised while getting out of a car to being bum-rushed by somebody while walking through a door etc.

(By the way, for this type of training you "MUST" suit up in protective gear, we used "High Gear" for those who may be familiar (which is a body armor along with a facemask / helmet), as it can be rather dangerous. Tony Blauer's High Gear allows for quite a bit of mobility considering you're covered from head to toe.)

In any event, let me give you an example of what these simulations might look like (an actual event). One of the scenarios we often introduce is a simulation where the "victim" is standing by an ATM (ok, so we pretended it's an ATM).

The simulation started with the would-be attacker walking up to the victim. After a verbal exchange between the two (the attacker was distracting him) another guy, the accomplice, came up behind the victim. Who by the way was unaware this was going to happen (in other words it was not pre-arranged).

Now this is where things got interesting...

The accomplice rushed the victim for a takedown from behind. (Keep in mind all the participants are wearing "armor" and this is 'anything goes' type of training). Somehow the victim managed to free himself (it wasn't pretty but resembled one of our techniques) and managed to cut the first guy off in mid-stride with a heelpalm strike to the helmet (it was to his jaw and knocked the guy out cold for a few seconds)... and at the same time managed to distract the accomplice enough to get out of the 'area' (which is what we always suggest in a self-defense scenario).

As a side note, I found it interesting that contrary to popular belief (in particular by the BJJ crowd) our simulations only went to the ground about 30% of the time...

As you can see, this has very little to do with point-sparring, yet it is sparring nontheless. I personally feel that if someone is serious about DEFENDING themselves, they ought to take the proper precautionary measures and train to defend themselves by training alive against fully resistant opponents using the technology available (the protective armor and training methods) to its fullest extent.

Be safe,
Stef

Another typical problem, and not just limited to Kenpo, is that fact that most instructors have never been in a real fight. And by that I mean someone intentionally intending to do you physical bodily injury, not merely showing off for the girls in the bar. How are they supposed to know how to train you for a fight when they have never been in one.

Another is that most have never taken the time to invest in their education regarding fights beyond what they learn in their schools. What about reading materials such as "Sharpening the Warriors Edge", "On Combat", and "On Killing", which document such things as how to train for real-world encounters? How about belonging to news groups, such as the Force Science Institute? Is their martial arts practice a hobby / job, or a study? For most, I would say hobby / job.

And lastly, not all instructors know how to instruct. Oh, sure, they know how to tell someone to put fist "A" into face "B". But what about body mechanics? What about the relaying the physiological / psychological explanations of stress on the body in a life and death struggle. What about the psychology of confrontation? Most instructors, and to be honest, I would include law enforcement instructors in that category, have no idea what to talk about.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Even when I was initially learning the techniques of motion Kenpo, I realized that it was my responsibility to incorporat what I'd learnt against a resistant opponant. I did this while sparring in kickboxing. For instance, if a left jab was thrown at me I would check it with my left, front kick with my left and finish with a jab and a cross. This was just a modified Delayed sword. I even remember being clocked by a right hook, absorbing it by turning my head to the right rolling over my left shoulder using zenpo ukemi, coming out of it in a right neutral bow and immediately performing a left rear roundhouse, followed by a right spinning back kick. In other words, I used Leap from Danger.
Regardless of how you train in the studio, you will never be able to train as if you were in a real fight, it's just impossible.
I have known 20 year veterans of martial atrs who have never and will never be able to fight. Their mechanics may be great, but when the brown stuff hits the fan, they crumble like filo pastry. Some of these people, I have learned alot about martial arts from.
One thing is for certain, every martial artist should know what it feel like to be punched in the face. A friend of mine in Dublin (who had flawless motion Kenpo techniques) got seriously attacked by a random thug one day and just gave up training. He thought it was all a lie. I've only just regained contact with him after almost ten years of being estranged. The thing is, I never once saw him spar, in kickboxing or kenpo. Then it occured to me that I had seen him get hit (and lightly) in technique lines on the odd occasion and stop, regain himself and ask his attacker to start again. He never once thought that this method of training would ever fail him. All along he was lying to himself.
If you want resistance training, go and train with people who resist like, kickboxers, Thaiboxers, BJJ practitioners, Judo and Sambo practitioners and incorporate your kenpo into the sparring/mat time.

 

[MattJ]

Excellent posts by SteffenBerg and Yorskshirelad. Really no mystery here - most kenpo people can't apply the art because they have never put it to resistance. I uses checks, zones of obscurity, tracking, rotational and residual forces, etc., in sparring all the time.

I can use them because I *DO* use them, LOL. These things are not just theories to be pondered over after class. Gotta get on the mat and try 'em out.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Excellent posts by SteffenBerg and Yorskshirelad. Really no mystery here - most kenpo people can't apply the art because they have never put it to resistance. I uses checks, zones of obscurity, tracking, rotational and residual forces, etc., in sparring all the time.

I can use them because I *DO* use them, LOL. These things are not just theories to be pondered over after class. Gotta get on the mat and try 'em out.

I used to get pissed off in Kenpo, learning free style techniques, then MMA glove started being used in kickboxing and the freestyle techniques opened up a whole new avenue to kickboxing. B1AH became B1A cross punch and works against every opponant who doesn't keep his lead hand close to his face. It helps both my offense and my training partner's defense. Everybody wins.

 

[JohnPeace]

I've been studying EPAK about a year and I'm the target for a lot of "controlled" punches, elbows, knees and kicks. Some come from white belts who have not yet acquired control and some come from experienced instructors who are training me for real-world application of the art. The training is what it is - if I wanted to do techniques and forms in the air I would have chosen another art. EPAK is fist meeting flesh.

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

The reason that most of the EPAK guys can not use their skill set is because EPAK is taught all wrong. Most everyone spends all their time training in technique lines and are never taught HOW TO APPLY TECHNIQUES AGAINST A FIGHTING OPPONET. Everything is taught from someone doing a step though punch and standing there with their arm out and waiting for 5 swords or what ever technique they are trying to use. As soon as someone does not stand their and let them hit them they turn into point sparring sport karate guys or they just get hit in the mouth. They have no clue how to counter or spar against someone that knows what they know and can do things they can't. I hear people say well we hit hard and bang in our technique lines and I agree with 99% of the people out their do hit hard as hell in a technique line. Well, guess what folks. If you doing that and your not a white, yellow or orange belt and you wear black around your waist then you need to go find a new teacher cause your are not learning jack diddly squat about how to fight or defend yourself.

The only functional techniques that can be pulled off live are the grabs, hugs and holds against a resistant opponent and that is because the way they are taught are the way they will happen. Well, other then the ram techniques cause they are useless against a true grappler. ALL the striking techniques will not work the way they are taught because the entries and the timing are wrong. They will not work against anyone that can fight or spar and does so often. Step back block kick chop should be evade move in move out parry kick strike move forward not stop pose cover out and look at your hair in the dam mirror and then have a discuss about how that techniques was this technique upside down and backwards. All that talking and discussion about category competition is only going get your *** beat against someone who fights and spars. Tell me how important that category completion crap is when you’re on your back having someone stuff ammonia capsule up your nose to wake you up after a guys with 3 months mma or fma training has knocked you out.


If Mr. Parker were alive today how do you think he would be teaching EPAK? Do you really think he would be doing technique lines with how fast MMA is advancing? Yet, all the 1st generation folks are still teaching and advancing rank to people who just technique line crap. The techniques can be altered to be functional but as they are taught now you are better off learning how to salsa dance cause you are just learning useless motion. At least learning salsa might get you a date with a hot Latin chica.

Now before my e mail inbox blows up let me say this. I am speaking in general terms and I am sure that there are people out there trying to make the correct adjustments but everyone who does is excommunicated. Mr Parker did not want EPAK to ever become outdated and stuck in tradition and that is exactly what it has become.

WAKE UP PEOPLE!

 

[Tames D]

Oh boy. This should be fun...

 

[MattJ]

The reason that most of the EPAK guys can not use their skill set is because EPAK is taught all wrong. Most everyone spends all their time training in technique lines and are never taught HOW TO APPLY TECHNIQUES AGAINST A FIGHTING OPPONET.

I agree that goes on far too much in kenpo.

ALL the striking techniques will not work the way they are taught because the entries and the timing are wrong. They will not work against anyone that can fight or spar and does so often.

I get what you're saying there, but I'm not sure that I agree totally. From what I have read, Mr Parker never intended the techniques to be done rote. They were simply ideas to be expanded upon by the students. But realistically, they are often taught to be done exactly that way, which is a failure of the system.

Tell me how important that category completion crap is when you’re on your back having someone stuff ammonia capsule up your nose to wake you up after a guys with 3 months mma or fma training has knocked you out.

Haha, over-analyzation was a pet-peeve of mine, too.

If Mr. Parker were alive today how do you think he would be teaching EPAK? Do you really think he would be doing technique lines with how fast MMA is advancing? Yet, all the 1st generation folks are still teaching and advancing rank to people who just technique line crap. The techniques can be altered to be functional but as they are taught now you are better off learning how to salsa dance cause you are just learning useless motion. At least learning salsa might get you a date with a hot Latin chica.

My problem is that kenpo is often taught as technique>principle, when it should be the other way around.