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Elfan
Guest
Kirk, Kenpo2000 has some Kenpo grappling techniques integrated with the curriculum
Q an A
- Thread starter Goldendragon7
- Start date
Kempojujutsu
Master Black Belt
My students are required to learn Grappling techniques for different belt ranks. But I don't teach EPAK, or Tracy's Kenpo. More of bend of Chinese, Okinawan, and American Kempo Jujutsu.
Bob
Bob
ikenpo
Black Belt
I think his question was, "Is there an American Kenpo curriculum that operates from the horizontal ideal phase and shows the principles of logic applied to the ground game, seriously? Or is everyone just formulating ideas? Did SGM Parker ever set anything in stone in regards to this? I remember back in the day, blue belt ground defense, but that was about it. I'm sure there have been quite a few black belt thesis on this topic, but I could be wrong.
Originally posted by Goldendragon7
[B
I am guessing that you have been around for quite some time and <know> that "NO ONE" has created Kenpo Grappling Techniques, or are you just saying that you personally have not heard of any from anyone that you personally have talked to?
There are Kenpo Grappling Seminars....... that I know of but they are mostly kept within their respective organizations and not been exploited publicly to any great degree. Buy I agree that you rarely hear of them..... but you will hear more in the future.
:asian: [/B]
The two that I've heard of specifically are Mr. Sanchez (saw an article on Kenpo used horizontally to cancel zones) and Mr. Mills, he has a vid on his website of a technique being done from the ground. I'm pretty sure Mr. Hancock has formulated some good stuff on this topic as well. It is unfortunate that there isn't a standard ground game for Kenpo, but then again some would argue there isn't a "standard" stand up game either...
jb:asian:
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Elfan
Guest
This is just a side point/ramble of mine not related to the history of formal "ground stuf" in EPAK but being horizontal is NOT ideal. The base of Kenpo is staying on your feet and striking with your hands. Ground stuf is very important, critical even, but it shoudn't be the base of your art and its not the ideal place to be.
Yep he has.
ikenpo
Black Belt
Certainly you know that I'm referring to an "ideal" response vs the "what if" and formulation stages...and not being on the ground as being the ideal position to be in...unless of course your the Machados or Gracies...and there aren't one,two or three other guys standing around waiting to stomp a mud hole into your a** when you get good and pre-occupied with your ground scenario.
jb:asian:
cdhall
Master Black Belt
This is an excellent point and a good place for me to quote Mr. Parker on this because I think it supports Elfan's point and I've been looking for a good excuse to bring it up.
"5. Holds and Hugs -- These in turn are more difficult because of the restriction of body movement and the limited number of available weapons and targets, as well as a real danger of being taken to the ground." - Infinite Insights Book 5, pg 69
This is one of the first times I noticed Mr. Parker addressing the ground. He addresses it as some place that you don't want to go and I also take this to mean that it is something to be avoided and that our system is primarily concerned with keeping you from going there.
I don't know if he ever wrote similarly about the "real danger of being thrown a right roundhouse punch." Ha, ha. I mean we Want that to happen. We are ready for that attack.
When I read this I thought that Mr. Parker was admitting that we didn't have a developed ground fighting system in EPAK. Of course we have stuff that works on the ground and we can adapt some of our stuff to the ground, but a true grappling student has a serious advantage over a pure EPAK student.
If he can get him there.
Anyway, I think Elfan makes a good point and I think Mr. Parker was concerned primarily with developing a stand-up striking art. Otherwise we might have the Guard, Mount and Side Mount "somewhere" on the charts, instead of maybe "Kicking Set 2" or "Striking Set 2." Or even "Kicking Set" for that matter.
Now I'll go get my asbestos underwear because Mr. C will be here soon to straighten me out.
ikenpo
Black Belt
Originally posted by cdhall
This is an excellent point and a good place for me to quote Mr. Parker on this because I think it supports Elfan's point and I've been looking for a good excuse to bring it up.
"5. Holds and Hugs -- These in turn are more difficult because of the restriction of body movement and the limited number of available weapons and targets, as well as a real danger of being taken to the ground." - Infinite Insights Book 5, pg 69
This is one of the first times I noticed Mr. Parker addressing the ground. He addresses it as some place that you don't want to go and I also take this to mean that it is something to be avoided and that our system is primarily concerned with keeping you from going there.
I don't know if he ever wrote similarly about the "real danger of being thrown a right roundhouse punch." Ha, ha. I mean we Want that to happen. We are ready for that attack.
When I read this I thought that Mr. Parker was admitting that we didn't have a developed ground fighting system in EPAK. Of course we have stuff that works on the ground and we can adapt some of our stuff to the ground, but a true grappling student has a serious advantage over a pure EPAK student.
If he can get him there.
Anyway, I think Elfan makes a good point and I think Mr. Parker was concerned primarily with developing a stand-up striking art. Otherwise we might have the Guard, Mount and Side Mount "somewhere" on the charts, instead of maybe "Kicking Set 2" or "Striking Set 2." Or even "Kicking Set" for that matter.
Now I'll go get my asbestos underwear because Mr. C will be here soon to straighten me out.
Well,
I understand the frame of reference that you are coming from, and I respectfully disagree with most of what you said. Also just keep on your leopard skin thong, GD7 probably won't be too hard on you at all. :rofl:
jb:asian:
OP
OP
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
Ok, I'll give you some hints...
The principles for grappling are the same as for stand up (vertical plane) defenses, but on a "horizontal plane", understanding the Kenpo Tools are a great source to aid you in this undertaking (knowledge of universal pattern, analytical study of motion are two that are extremely useful). A couple of quick examples are:
Ok........ Let's take [Dance of Death] {Frontal Attack}..... when adapted to "Kenpo Grappling" the initial moves are nothing more than an aggressive single leg take-down, then maneuver into the [Sleeper] to apply the choke to submission.
The [Grasp of Death] {side choke while kneeling}..... is adapted to free yourself from the choke and maneuver into an arm-bar choke combination.
I know you may or may not be able to interpret exactly what I mean without actually seeing or feeling but it will at least start you thinking.
:asian:
OP
OP
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
Hang on Guys......... hang on...........!!!!!!
CD.... you are exactly right, there is not an exact drawn out curriculum pictured in "Technicolor" for anyone! Yet, realize that grappling attacks take place in a [Phase] that you probably have not been ready for yet or placed much attention to. That "Phase" is the "what if" ......... i.e., what if you are on the ground or in a headlock on the ground..... etc etc.
The answers lie in what has already been taught to you however, you may not fully comprehend or really understood the Kenpo Tools that would allow you to realize that the principles (which you know) are or can be applied to any plane of action {path}.... vertical, horizontal or diagonal or any other "measure of degree"! When also inserting the <8 considerations>........ Acceptance - Environment - Range - Position - Maneuvers - Targets - Natural Weapons & Natural Defenses, you will discover that you COULD APPLY WITH A LITTLE "FORMULATION"* defensive actions ==that you are already familiar with== to aid you in the discovery of old applications to seemingly new scenarios.
Yes, we are digging deep into the Kenpo System now but keep in mind that this is NOT a topical ART!! It does in fact have layers and they are not fiction. The revelation is much like that of the Bible...... what you read is not always what you see...... you must sometimes look beyond a basic "interpretation" {designed for the beginners}and meaning to find additional wisdom {extracted and used only by those that have an expanded vocabulary of motion}.
This stuff is not pipe dream or mystical material only held by certain individuals...... I personally know a few that understand what I am talking about. Yet, others have no clue and call it fantasy.......
well, that's ok, because...... "You only know what you know ..... not what I know".
Now....... additional cross training for some is of great assistance and in no means a bad thing..... some need the examples and assistance of other recources...... that's brilliant!! Dig where you need to dig..... the gold doesn't come to you....... No one said it was an easy journey all the time. hee heee
:asian:
This I agree with very much so SIR! I've tried to say this many times over and made a lot of people angry when I've said something similar. Maybe it was in the delivery.
Anyway there are people out there that can take your knowledge and tweak it a little and make that tech. a lot better or give just a little better understanding.:asian:
OP
OP
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
A good individual with ANY sort of training should <never> be underestimated (including grapplers and boxers). The ideal phase only "STARTS" the process of self defense.... you -must- advance on to skilled opponents at some point unless you only want train to defend yourself against un-skilled opponents [at the entry level of training]. The ideal phase only gives you a start in the system (1/3) and establishes the basics.... the next phase, is where you really start to learn the application and adaptation process.... {I realize many have not understood this or are not there yet} to take that "base" to yet another level. This is really where the "rubber meets the road" not in the beginning levels much like in elementary school curriculums vs. college training and then adaptation to the "real world".
You must have been referring to a "Beginning" pure EPAK student, not one of the skilled advanced students that really knows, has developed and trained what he/she has, right?
Correct........ that was higher on his priority list for the system but not the "only" area he wanted to address!
Originally posted by cdhall
Now I'll go get my asbestos underwear because Mr. C will be here soon to straighten me out.
LOL... make sure it is double lined and have "Shuttle Tiles" coating the outside........:rofl:
Actually, this reminds me of a story Mr. Parker used to tell in these salutations... (excerpt from upcoming book... "Warrior Tales...... American Kenpo's Best Loved Stories" by Dennis Conatser)
THE HANDYMAN
For a present to his son, a man purchased a bicycle that his boy had his eyes on for some time, then had it delivered to his house. When the box arrived he realized that it was in parts and not put together. The man was a little upset that he now had to assemble this bike and that his son would be home from school in only 3 hours which would spoil the surprise and also that his son would surely want to try it out immediately upon seeing it.
The man unboxed the bicycle and separated what seemed to be a thousand pieces. He sat down with the instructions, but after about an hour, frustration set in and he decided to call his friend who was a handyman and ask for assistance.
Fortunately the handyman was available to come over immediately and start the project. As he walked in the garage he saw the bicycle with its many parts on the floor. The man handed the handyman the instructions and stepped back to watch. The handyman laid down the instructions and immediately started in on the assembling of this bike. Within 30 minutes the handyman was totally finished and the bike was ready for use.
The man was totally amazed at not only the speed in which the handyman worked but the fact that he didn’t ONCE pick up the instructions to help with the assembly! I tried to do what you did but I could not make any sense of the booklet! The man then asked the handyman …….. “How is it that you could put this contraption together and yet not a single occasion did you once check the instruction manual”?
The handyman laughed and then said; “Fact is sir, that I can’t read,.............. and if you can’t read…........ You gotta think!”
So too is it with our truly unique system of American Kenpo, even though the system is curriculumized to a great degree you can't hold everyone's hands forever..... you have to ....... well ............. think!
:asian:
Ginsu
Orange Belt
Mr C,
Your answer to this was great thank you for the wonderful response as usual.
Doug hopefully you really do not believe that statement you made and were just trying to get an insightful response. Also since I know you are in Austin ask Mr. Billings about how many of the techniques are used in grappling. We have had many discussions on this and worked many of the techniques in those situations.
Respectfully,
Ginsu
cdhall
Master Black Belt
Amen.
I got a lot of good answers.
I was curious to see what the reaction would be, that is true Ginsu.
I mean why do we have 44 Variations on 5 Swords (I think that is correct from Mr. C's Master Key posting somewhere on here) but not one "grappling" technique? That seems a bit overloaded.
Anyway, Mr. Speakman recently asked us in his Dec 2002 seminar if anyone had any questions and specifically used "Does Kenpo work on the Ground?" as an example but no one took him up on it.
I didn't say anything then either because I know it "works" on the ground, but I also think that most Kenpo Brown Belts or Black Belts will lose a grappling encounter with a Gracie Purple or Brown Belt.
Again, if the Gracie guy can get the Kenpo guy to the ground.
Here is my experience in Grappling so far. We had a guy that taught on Saturdays before I took over and he liked to work the Guard, Mount, Side Mount, Shrimp, Fig 4 armbar, American Choke/Stranglehold, and 1-2 other techniques. He would usually spend 15-30mins of classtime reviewing or teaching these.
He used to go to a Machado School on open mat night and said that these were basically all the techniques he knew and with them he was very capable of defending himself and he was by no means at everyone's mercy in that mixed class of primarily grappling students. So there are just a few techniques that you need (Master Key Grappling techniques maybe) that will serve you very well and he and I wondered why these 6-8 moves were not on our charts.
When I first went to his class he was showing how a grappling student can easily apply a choke. They work on it all the time. If you give them 1 second then they are choking you out. There were 2-3 chokes he used as examples, but they were simple, effective and very readily available to an assailant.
When I first started working with him, I did Snapping Twig and some other stuff while on my back that he pointed out work very well. Some of the stuff I formulated on the ground surprised him quite a bit. He used some of it as examples. He was impressed that in my first grappling class I was able to actually defend myself and get to him.
On the other hand I was sure that if we just dropped to the ground he could put me in a choke faster than I could formulat a response.
So I know Kenpo of this works on the ground. It just seems odd that we have 44 Right Roundhouse Punch defense variants and not even 6 Master Key Grappling moves. I mean if we were trying to get everyone to think, then we should throw everything out there and let experience and your instructor help you sort it out.
I have a conclusion, but I can't get it worked out so I've deleted it. Basically I think that based on that quote from Book 5 I am accept that Kenpo is a stand-up striking art and that that is what a Black Belt should be good at. I guess. Based on the curriculum that is the logical conclusion. Prior to reading that I thought a Black Belt should have more "mystical powers." It was good for me to see that and re-focus. I don't deny that Kenpo works in grappling and that you can take the principles and concepts into anything and they'll serve you well. I've worked out with other stylists and I have seen that I can pick up what they are doing and help them at the same time based on my Kenpo knowledge.
I'll shut up. I'm confusing myself. PM me if you like. I may expand on this/edit it down later somehow.
OP
OP
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
You have a valid point, but let's use a prime "Kenpo Tool" to examine why. {Infinite Insights - Book 1, page 1} From "YOUR point of view", and with all YOUR experiences up to date, is what your feelings and opinion is based upon. Now, with that in mind, it allows you to realize..... where you are, where you have been, and where you still need to go to get expanded training to increase your current skills and become better than you are at this time. All of what you have done is valid but you realize that there are skills that are either weak and need improvement or lacking totally.
You are at a particular level of experience, Brown Belt, (keep in mind that - belt or no belt, what you actually KNOW and can DO is what is more important than the color of the belt) you still have much to learn and experience yet to Black and even then you are not at the end ......... thru [several] levels {or years of experience} of Black Belt. During this time, I'm positive the material will present itself and you will be able to expand your definitions of "current material" and realize that you are currently limiting your views on the techniques due to lack of experience that will come in time....... Recall the words........ " Let time be your measure to skill and experience".
Yes, I agree........ question is why? Because he is conditioned for this specific type of activity at this point and YOU are not! Simple! Now go put on the sparring gear and freestyle with him for a typical open point tournament and see how he does in your POND! I recall the words again....... "Condition and guts, take over where knowledge and skill end". You are not "conditioned" as of yet for grappling due to the curriculum path that your are currently following..... this will not last forever, be patient grasshopper, one skill at a time....
Again....... due to your exposure, only at this time...... only "AT THIS TIME" once you broaden your horizons..... you will see a different sunrise.
Damn, today the little voices are all over me..... Doug do you remember this Kenpo Tool..... "I pledge a continued effort to sharpen my skills, increase my knowledge, and to broaden my horizons...... (Green Belt pledge I do believe) go back and examine exactly what that means....... {you bill is growing with me ..... you know}
So then....... WHAT'S THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:asian:
{I think God put you here to keep me on my toes..... NO, you are just doing this to test me aren't you...... OR POSSIBLY... it really is Billings isn't it. He put you up to this to see if I really know anything! Hmmmmmmmm}
:rpo: RTFM :rpo:
The only thing I'll add to this is that the advantage will only be in ground fighting situations only.
I will agree with this statement many times over. I stand by my views and beliefs on this very subject. Again, a grappling student will be better on the ground due to constant drilling of techniques and such where as our art will be much better standing up. Once again I probably opened up a big can of worms here for myself but yet I will be a man and stand up for my beliefs. :asian:
OP
OP
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
I just can't resist..........
"If you don't stand for something......... You'll fall for anything"
:rofl:
:asian:
Probably!! :rofl:
It's the story of my life.
I could talk about this one blonde in my life but I'd rather not.
tarabos
2nd Black Belt
friend of mine used to train a lot in BBJ in addition to Kenpo. he held his own pretty well there. relating more to my point however, is when it came time to do a drill of sorts to try and take the opponent down vale-tudo style. the pure BBJ students were then at a bit of a disadvantage because strikes came into play.
the grapplers were not able to take him down consistently because when they would try to shoot, he would blast them with an elbow or a knee, or simply used footwork to avoid being taken down.
would a seasoned BBJ practitioner been able to take him to the ground fairly easily, yeah probably. but at the time he was not exactly what i would call "seasoned" in kenpo either. the students there had about the same years experience in grappling as he had in kenpo, and the fight usually was never taken to the ground.
eh...it's all relative in the end i guess...
the grapplers were not able to take him down consistently because when they would try to shoot, he would blast them with an elbow or a knee, or simply used footwork to avoid being taken down.
would a seasoned BBJ practitioner been able to take him to the ground fairly easily, yeah probably. but at the time he was not exactly what i would call "seasoned" in kenpo either. the students there had about the same years experience in grappling as he had in kenpo, and the fight usually was never taken to the ground.
eh...it's all relative in the end i guess...
