Putting Other Martial Artists Down

[JowGaWolf]

While pool is incredibly different than martial arts, I think the argument of "if it works, it works" still applies, even if no one understands how it works, and you're breaking every rule for how it's supposed to work.

my understanding of pool is that it's all about the angles. As long as those are correct then the other stuff doesn't matter unless it affect one's ability to get the angle correct

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

my understanding of pool is that it's all about the angles. As long as those are correct then the other stuff doesn't matter unless it affect one's ability to get the angle correct

There's actually a pretty good comparison to martial arts (at least striking arts). What matters is you're able to strike the person with a lot of power while trying to prevent them from doing the same. As long as you can accomplish that, everything else doesn't matter unless it affects one's ability to achieve that goal.

 

[Tez3]

Because your criticism may

• stop me from doing something that is harming my training
• you may have a better insight on how to deploy an application such as a sweep.
• you may have a better understanding of concepts such a baiting and counter punching
• you may have a better understanding of a technique that is similar to what I'm trying to learn that helps me fill in the gaps that I may be missing.
• you may have a better understanding of tactics and strategies related to fighting
• you may have a better understanding of how most people attack.
• you may have knowledge that is useful to me that helps me to improve
• you may see gaps or things that I may not be taking into consideration when training an application

Just because you do not train in my system doesn't mean that your insight and perception of self-defense does not apply to the system that I train. Every martial arts system has similarities and the system you train may have pieces to the puzzle in my system where my instruction wasn't as complete. In some cases depending on closely related the 2 systems are, you may actually be able to help me understand a Jow Ga technique simply because it's similar to technique that you are successful in using.

I cannot however tell any of that from a video, as I've said before videos do not work for me, I'm not a visual learner, I can tell very little from a video. I prefer not to cast my net as wide as you, I do what works for me and I don't want a thousand techniques at my disposal. My methods are going to be different from yours by dint of size, weight and gender anyway. Searching so many systems to find answers seems more work than is necessary, I don't know any system that doesn't have answers. This is why I do Bunkai, the answers are in there you don't have to search for the holy grail of techniques. I want to be the cat that runs straight up the tree when the hounds are coming not the fox sitting there pondering which technique to use while they get closer.

 

[Tarrycat]

I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to help someone or analysing their movements/skills, but I think that sometimes the TONE people use in helping others is what defines it as either being helpful, or then coming across as crass &/or rude.

The underlying tone through which you communicate is very important in your daily dealings with people. You can help someone, & remain humble, or you can resort to criticising them & then coming across as a douche-kanoo.

In our class, students will ask me to point out to them whenever I feel like they are doing something wrong, so that they can then improve on whatever it is that they are struggling with. I analyse their movements via the instructions of our teacher though, not based on my own knowledge (I don't have enough knowedge or skills to do that, lol), i.e. Let's say they stand in Ichimonji, & their heels aren't lined up, or perhaps their 45 degree angles are a bit off; I will then just point that out to them & the next time they do it, or after that, they will actually do it right, after which I will praise them for doing so. It's all about your attitude towards people.

And if you carefully observe people's behaviour; they will not have a problem with you trying to help them if you come from a place of understanding & lowliness. If you tell them "Don't worry, I struggled with "xyz" technique as well when I was at your level, it takes time"; or "I'm also still struggling with "xyz" technique"; they can then RELATE to you as a human being & not feel bad or insecure for finding something difficult.

However, if you're coming from a place of superiority, someone who has little patience, someone who is critical, & someone who humiliates the mistakes or lack of skills of others, then people will definitely shy away from your "help".

It's all about vulnerability. If you cannot be vulnerable with people, they will always see you as a superior being & not be able to ask for your help, hence they will feel inferior to you. On the other hand, if you are honest & raw with them (bring your guard down & swallow your pride), they can relate to you & that then establishes a foundation for connection.

Perhaps I'm coming from a place of too much estrogen to some on this thread? . I don't know, but it really does help, I've found at least. There could be millions of other options or scenarios to apply to a situation like this that I'm not aware of. So if someone disagrees, or has something to add, please do.

 

[Tez3]

I think it's "snooker" in the UK.

We have snooker and pool here, most likely it will be pool because snooker is played on a big table that most places can't fit in.

Perhaps I'm coming from a place of too much estrogen to some on this thread?

A word to the wise, you opinions are yours, be proud of them, don't apologise or suggest they are too 'feminine', gender doesn't matter here. Opinions don't come from your hormones but your experience and expertise.

 

[Tarrycat]

I was in the RAF for a few years then in the MoD in a uniformed but civilian capacity. The UK has the Home office police which everyone knows but also a couple of smaller forces.


How I deal with posters on here entirely depends on how they treat me. It depends on the situation, who is fighting and why they are fighting on how I'd approach it but on the whole you have to do what is best for you, walking away is a very good solution, nothing wrong with that at all. It often depends on gender how people approach things, if I had to walk up to a bunch of squaddies who'd been out drinking and I needed to see their Id cards, ask them where they'd been I'd take a humorous approach, probably said 'c'mon lads get them out', which of course they'd take the wrong way but they'd laugh and I'd say 'non, no your Id cards, I can't take too much excitement in one night'. They'd remain in their good mood and I could deal with them like that and get the info I wanted. I have seen however a male colleague walk up to a bunch of lads and demand in a very authoritarian voice to see there ID's, they lads got stroppy and we had to all wade in to stop him being assaulted. for many being in a position of 'power' means they have to always be aware of their dignity and pride, whereas I, because I'm not able or going to fight a bunch of lads ( or females which is much worse) don't believe it's beneath my dignity to chat to people or to deal with them with a sense of humour. You get back what you deal out.

That is very true. If you approach people with a poor attitude, they will immediately put their guards up & respond in an aggressive tone as well.


It's very interesting to me how you've dealt with people like that. You treated them like your equal & that's why they reacted positively. Human behaviour has always been an interesting topic for me to study & to talk about.



Perhaps it's sometimes just best to humour negative individuals or adversity as a whole. My father once told me that the best way to retaliate to adversity is by being resilient - to use adversity as a tool of motivation & as a source of strength to keep growing as an individual.


You gave me a lot to think about. Isn't it sort of reverse psychology that you used? Or what would you classify it as? Lol. I know a lot of people who participated at the border war, or worked in the police force (like my dad) that use reverse psychology quite often. It actually works quite well for them.

 

[Tarrycat]

We have snooker and pool here, most likely it will be pool because snooker is played on a big table that most places can't fit in.



A word to the wise, you opinions are yours, be proud of them, don't apologise or suggest they are too 'feminine', gender doesn't matter here. Opinions don't come from your hormones but your experience and expertise.

True that... . Thank you for the input, I will take it into consideration*

I'm proud of my opinions in person, but on social media I don't want it to come across too harsh. It's very easy to misinterpret words without tone (or some tone at least) to them.

I don't text much (text messaging I avoid like the plague). I only use it for logistic purposes, so I'm still working on it. On this forum I have found a lot of value, so I don't mind the texting. I have a hard time expressing myself through words, because I'm a very passionate person (understatement).

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think something is being overlooked here.

People are referring to correcting students, such as students in their own schools. That's something entirely different than what I referring to. Obviously there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism of students one is supposed to be helping. And if one is holding one's own students up to ridicule instead of making corrections; well that's a different issue, but just as bad.

I am speaking of people reacting negatively to other martial artists - not their own students - and judging them or holding them up to ridicule. As I've said, I've done it, it was wrong, and I will try not to do it again.

Doing so makes several assumptions.

The first is that one is qualified to judge others. If I look honestly at myself, I realize I am not. Not even if the person in question is supposedly a member of the same basic style of martial arts I train in.

The second is that I am seeing what I think I am seeing. Unless I was physically present, and actually involved in the session in question with the martial artist in question, I cannot be certain that I'm not seeing something that was not actually the case.

I point the finger of blame at myself primarily. Let others gather from this what they may.

 

[CB Jones]

I think something is being overlooked here.

People are referring to correcting students, such as students in their own schools. That's something entirely different than what I referring to. Obviously there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism of students one is supposed to be helping. And if one is holding one's own students up to ridicule instead of making corrections; well that's a different issue, but just as bad.

I am speaking of people reacting negatively to other martial artists - not their own students - and judging them or holding them up to ridicule. As I've said, I've done it, it was wrong, and I will try not to do it again.

Doing so makes several assumptions.

The first is that one is qualified to judge others. If I look honestly at myself, I realize I am not. Not even if the person in question is supposedly a member of the same basic style of martial arts I train in.

The second is that I am seeing what I think I am seeing. Unless I was physically present, and actually involved in the session in question with the martial artist in question, I cannot be certain that I'm not seeing something that was not actually the case.

I point the finger of blame at myself primarily. Let others gather from this what they may.

Still....the martial artist in question is a YouTube celebrity getting paid for these videos.

It is a business.

He is a public figure and celebrity.

He is marketing himself to consumers....and consumers should be allowed to voice their opinions on the product he is selling.

Nothing wrong with stating your opinion as long as you realize it's just your opinion and stay civil with the discussion.

 

[Tez3]

The first is that one is qualified to judge others. If I look honestly at myself, I realize I am not. Not even if the person in question is supposedly a member of the same basic style of martial arts I train in.

The second is that I am seeing what I think I am seeing. Unless I was physically present, and actually involved in the session in question with the martial artist in question, I cannot be certain that I'm not seeing something that was not actually the case.

This is how I feel, I know I don't pick up from videos enough information to judge anything so I rarely look at the videos posted on here. I also don't think I'm qualified to judge other people's techniques on video, in person it's different but even then I would just dive in if it were someone else's class.

He is marketing himself to consumers....and consumers should be allowed to voice their opinions on the product he is selling.

They should but then if they are judging him they also will be judged by others who read their comments so they might want to bear that in mind. If in doubt say nought is often a good thing to think about.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I try not to put down others as people or as martial artists. However I will, under certain circumstances, critique specific execution of martial arts.

Obviously, if someone posts video of themselves and asks for feedback, that is fair game. I do try to be diplomatic and encouraging while still offering constructive criticism if I have any.

When someone posts video of someone else and asks whether that would be a good person to learn from or a good technique to practice, then I think there is value in offering an evaluation of what is being shown. That doesn't mean trashing the subject of the query, just providing some perspective on what is being shown.

After 36 years in the martial arts I think I am qualified to offer critique on a lot of what is out there and I also have a pretty good idea of where I am not qualified to offer an opinion. I'm also aware of the fact that I am sometimes wrong, so I try not to overstate my case and I try to keep my commentary specific rather than offering sweeping judgments.

 

[Tarrycat]

I think something is being overlooked here.

People are referring to correcting students, such as students in their own schools. That's something entirely different than what I referring to. Obviously there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism of students one is supposed to be helping. And if one is holding one's own students up to ridicule instead of making corrections; well that's a different issue, but just as bad.

I am speaking of people reacting negatively to other martial artists - not their own students - and judging them or holding them up to ridicule. As I've said, I've done it, it was wrong, and I will try not to do it again.

Doing so makes several assumptions.

The first is that one is qualified to judge others. If I look honestly at myself, I realize I am not. Not even if the person in question is supposedly a member of the same basic style of martial arts I train in.

The second is that I am seeing what I think I am seeing. Unless I was physically present, and actually involved in the session in question with the martial artist in question, I cannot be certain that I'm not seeing something that was not actually the case.

I point the finger of blame at myself primarily. Let others gather from this what they may.

I understand your point 100%. What I said was a bit off topic, originally.



It's more a topic of casting judgment when nobody is perfect. It relates to what I said in some way. I stated that one should rather come from a place of understanding than looking down upon others. I just used all that as an example.



If someone is doing something (it doesn't have to be someone you know in person), & you question their techniques, you should come from a place of lowliness. Like you said, you cannot judge someone if you aren't in a position to do so - that's being humble.



So then I guess all you can do is ask that person why they are doing it that way, & leave it at that. Perhaps you could ask someone who is, in fact, highly experienced to help you understand what the other person is doing right or wrong & take it from there.



I'm not certain whether or not to help someone like that or to give them some constructive criticism (based on a very experienced person's point of view), because every individual would react differently.



I would lean on pursuing to help them (not based on my own knowledge, of course), because I would want that person to improve & to not be a victim of any form of humiliation. There is nothing more humiliating than not doing something the right way (especially when you've been doing it wrong for years). I would rather have someone tell me I'm doing something wrong (in a nice way of course), than make a fool of myself.



Again, not everyone reasons like I do.



I've had some experiences in the gym when I wasn't using the equipment accurately & someone would correct me - I appreciated it.



If I am in the same boat, I will tell them that I'm struggling with some of the techniques too, but that with practice it will get better (not coming from a place of authority &/or superiority).



If the individual is very opinionated, set in their own ways, & is always looking for a way to justify that their methods are the only true methods (even when it's not right), then that becomes their problem. Sooner or later they will realise that there is much more to life than just their ways & means of doing things.



I don't have much else to add I guess. It's a subjective topic, so everyone will approach something like this in a different way. To me, there is a difference between helping someone & judging them. Your intentions will be pure & supportive VS. just being cruel.

 

[TigerHeart]

The martial art school that I attend is all about respect. Even a Hanshi respects me and he has 9th degree black belt. When I first saw him, I thought he was very stuck-up. The good thing is I was wrong about him. He turns out to be a nice guy.

 

[Xue Sheng]

@Bill Mattocks

Just came across this on Sensei Ando site.

This is the last part of an article I just posted and I thought this bit was very applicable here

The rest of this is from Sensei Ando and his site

"One more thing…

If you already practice martial arts, then you know there’s a lot of trash talk out there between different martial arts styles… which is ridiculous! It’s ridiculous because we’re all on the same team.

The big difference isn’t between the people who practice this style and the people who practice that style, the big difference is between the people who practice martial arts and the people who don’t!

I got news for you—to the people who don’t study martial arts, we’re all a bunch of weirdos! That’s why we should stick together.

If you practice martial arts, then I’ll bet your life has gotten better. I’ll bet you also want your friends and family to share in that same experience, right?

So, instead of trashing each other’s arts, let’s start promoting them—all of them! Because I’d rather see my friends and family training in a style that I don’t practice than not training at all."

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

@Bill Mattocks

Just came across this on Sensei Ando site.

This is the last part of an article I just posted and I thought this bit was very applicable here

The rest of this is from Sensei Ando and his site

"One more thing…

If you already practice martial arts, then you know there’s a lot of trash talk out there between different martial arts styles… which is ridiculous! It’s ridiculous because we’re all on the same team.

The big difference isn’t between the people who practice this style and the people who practice that style, the big difference is between the people who practice martial arts and the people who don’t!

I got news for you—to the people who don’t study martial arts, we’re all a bunch of weirdos! That’s why we should stick together.

If you practice martial arts, then I’ll bet your life has gotten better. I’ll bet you also want your friends and family to share in that same experience, right?

So, instead of trashing each other’s arts, let’s start promoting them—all of them! Because I’d rather see my friends and family training in a style that I don’t practice than not training at all."

This reminded me of something a professor told me in a religious studies class years back. Essentially, the more that two religions have in common(/common origin), the more you will see argument between them. Because whatever the difference is, someone at some point felt passionately enough about it to create an entirely new denomination/sect/religion/etc., and that passion got passed down. It's why you will see more arguments between people of the same overall religion (his example was Sunni and Shi'ite, IIRC, since it was a class on islam) then you will between people from different religions (Shintoism and Christianity for example). Taking the Sunni and Shi'ite example, the "to the people not practicing martial arts, we're all a bunch of weirdos" line holds true there. A lot of people don't care about the difference between sunni, Shi'ite, or whatever sect you might belong to, they'll just see your muslim and base their opinions on that. But that outside view, and knowledge of that view, doesn't tend to stop the internal conflict that occurs.

I can see that line of thinking work very well for martial arts. The people who complain about aikido (IMO) tends to be judo/jujutsu guys, the WC guys are always having arguments amongst themselves on this forum that no one else seems to care about, and I've seen a ton of arguments happen between different CMA artists near me, claiming the other CMA "isn't real", or some other nonsense.

On a more general level, the logic could work for martial arts as a whole. If the issue is that people get more emotional/angry/argumentative over differences they are passionate about, and most martial artists tend to be passionate about their art, then seeing an art you believe to be wrong, or your own art being portrayed in a view that you consider wrong, then you are much more likely to get argue about it, trying to prove that your art is better, or that art is worse, etc.

 

[punisher73]

I think something is being overlooked here.

People are referring to correcting students, such as students in their own schools. That's something entirely different than what I referring to. Obviously there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism of students one is supposed to be helping. And if one is holding one's own students up to ridicule instead of making corrections; well that's a different issue, but just as bad.

I am speaking of people reacting negatively to other martial artists - not their own students - and judging them or holding them up to ridicule. As I've said, I've done it, it was wrong, and I will try not to do it again.

Doing so makes several assumptions.

The first is that one is qualified to judge others. If I look honestly at myself, I realize I am not. Not even if the person in question is supposedly a member of the same basic style of martial arts I train in.

The second is that I am seeing what I think I am seeing. Unless I was physically present, and actually involved in the session in question with the martial artist in question, I cannot be certain that I'm not seeing something that was not actually the case.

I point the finger of blame at myself primarily. Let others gather from this what they may.

Also, there are many videos that don't really say "what" the video is supposed to be. I have seen some good martial artists that have put up a video that was trying to show something to a group of beginners and needless to say, the video was not very flattering to what I know their skill was. Some martial artists are just not good "performers" to make what they do "pretty" even though it works.

I always think back to what my roommate in college said, "everyone sucks to somebody else". We will always find someone who disagrees with someone as to their skill even if other people find the person in question very skilled. Not every approach in martial arts is everyone's cup of tea. I know my instructor has taught in a way that it is accessible to everyone, he leaves it up to the individual to how deep they go with their study and allows them to "pick their path" so to speak. When he and I work together, I often get pulled aside and taught things that aren't taught to many others because of my focus and job. So, I have a very different view of what I do than people who also study the same system. Also, because of his approach, I have seen a lot of less than flattering videos of other students who just have fun doing what they are doing and even though I cringe when I put on my filters when I view it, and have to remember that the reason that they do it, is not even close to the reason that I do it.

People teach and share for different reasons in the martial arts, and those filters will color how we view what is being presented. Our own experiences and studies will also add more color to how we view it. I know I have seen discussion on here that someone has said that a certain technique doesn't work, or a certain situation won't happen, when I know from my own personal experience that it wasn't the case.

 

[Buka]

Reading this thread for the first time, just wanted to add my two cents about pool. While understanding angles are a must [just like in striking] playing pool on a decent to world class level is really about two things. It is about stroke and it is about position.

I guess that's like striking, too.

 

[hoshin1600]

back when i was studying pool under Steve Mizerak, he said:
"you cant control the balls, all you can do is control yourself"
sounds a lot like Zen philosophy and martial arts to me.

(ok ok i lied........ i was studying his book i never really met the guy, but he did really say that in his book, at least i think it was in his book, but then again it could have been my aunts second cousin removed, who new a guy who played a game of pool once.)

 

[CB Jones]

Reading this thread for the first time, just wanted to add my two cents about pool. While understanding angles are a must [just like in striking] playing pool on a decent to world class level is really about two things. It is about stroke and it is about position.

I guess that's like striking, too.

You also need a cool nickname like Fast Eddie, No Penny Benny, Memphis Flash, Gypsy George, etc...

 

[jobo]

Reading this thread for the first time, just wanted to add my two cents about pool. While understanding angles are a must [just like in striking] playing pool on a decent to world class level is really about two things. It is about stroke and it is about position.

I guess that's like striking, too.

having played 8 ball pool at international level( over 50s ) its mostly about temperament and tatics, every one is pretty dam good, its the ability to perform under pressure that makes the difference add in the tactical ability to tie a better player up and you can be extremely effective despite a skill deficit. Which is again i suppose is quite close to ma?