Put off by the yelling?

[lavender]

Well, to be fair, you *can* tense up your abdominal muscles without yelling. And alot of people dont lack confidence - Theyre socially conditioned to not be loud and noisy. Which makes it 'uncomfortable' for them to *be* loud and noisy.

Of course you can. Yelling can be a tool to teach them that. We're talking beginners learning to yell. Not everyone automatically knows how their body works. Still sounds like the socially conditioned people you mentioned lack confidence.

A Chinese Martial Art Point of View


Can you imagine someone only being able to handle a hit when they yell..... that means I attack that person again immiediatly after they yell...when they inhale.... and they will have to inhale


Yelling and kia and all that has its place and is basic training for many arts....not the ones I train... but many.... just because someone does not or cannot yell has nothing to do with confidence

Whoever said we turn into noodles after yelling? If they had the confidence to defend themselves, they would be confident enough to yell. Of course that does not mean a person HAS to yell if they are confident. Imagine some parent that yells alot and the kid doesn't respond how the parent wanted and the adult is flummoxed. Obviously just being loud is not always enough to be effective.

The tightening of the abdominals is just a secondary consequence of the kiap which should also be happening when you exhale during a strike. The exhale, like the kiap, is a short sharp release of air (like a fart but from the other end). It's mainly for a distraction and to increase the amount of effort that is put into a strike (the same reason tennis players grunt when they hit the ball and weight lifters sometimes yell when lifting weights). If you can get a strike in when your opponent whilst they are inhaling you will do a lot more damage but it would be difficult get the timing right in the heat of battle.

We don't yell on every move. That would be strange. There is a lot of hissing or "ch"ing that can go on. Not necessarily with beginners, though. At some point they learn kiap and the hissing stuff. Beginners don't necessarily know about generating power with the way they breathe, the yell is A place to start them learning.

While timing your strike with an opponents exhale may be tricky, it's possible to do it by accident, or as a side effect of what your trying to do (still an accident). I already knew how yelling generates power, I didn't know the point the instructor made about the tightening having a protective function. Depending on which kids come to class on a given day, it can be easier to explain the protective function.





We're talking beginners here. I have in mind a particular beginning student, his kick would barely change the direction of a flying insect if he hit one. So light it barely could count as exercise. It's soooo hard to get him to yell. I don't expect the kids to kick the target out of my hand. Getting him to yell, to feel that power in his abs, his center, it might ground him enough to feel that he has more power and along with that a touch more confidence, and bring more ooomph into his kicks. Perhaps feeling that power, knowing it's there, would make him look less like a good target for bullies.



To the OP's question, when I started I only had a little trouble with yelling. Now I easily use it in classes. My favorite time to yell is once at the start of a sparring match. Now it's more of a self-preparation thing. Instead of running through lengthy mental list of things to prepare myself, the yell reminds me of those things in a moment. A bigger problem was being worried about the people watching. We were located in a mall and there was a long window to the hallway and people often would stop and watch. I got used to it, but I still like to practice in privacy. I still have trouble performing (as in practicing, haven't tried a competition for a while) in front of people sometimes.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Ugh, I just wrote a rather in depth response about the useage of kiai and why it's not used in aikido, but then I got the dreaded "MT is not responding" message and lost the whole thing. I hate that when it happens.

So to sum up the points I was going to make:

Kiai ellict different physiological responses in the body and change a person's breathing depending on the type of kiai used.

Kiai and aiki are opposite concepts. That's why they are not present in aikido. Kiai puts out your ki (or intention for those who have difficulty understanding what ki is about), in aikido you harmonize with the opponents ki, putting your own out there through the use of kiai interupts this harmonizing. That's why aikido focuses on deeper, claming breaths. They help you focus on blending with the energy as you breath in to recieve the attack and breath out to redirect it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Whoever said we turn into noodles after yelling?

No one did, you are missing the point. If you can only take a hit when you yell then there are multiple other instances when you cannot because you cannot yell. If you can only strike hard and yell or for that matter only after an exhale then you are open to attack right after you exhale since you need the exhale to strike with power or be able to take the attack. Basically if you train only strike or take a punch with a yell and or an exhale you are open to attack on the inhale. And if you stay to tense after the exhale, using too much muscle to stay tense you cannot fight either and are again open to attack and not being able to respond or counter.

If they had the confidence to defend themselves, they would be confident enough to yell. Of course that does not mean a person HAS to yell if they are confident. Imagine some parent that yells alot and the kid doesn't respond how the parent wanted and the adult is flummoxed. Obviously just being loud is not always enough to be effective.

If they are confident enough to defend themselves they could be confident enough to yell but not yelling or not wanting to yell or not seeing a need to yell does not mean lack of confidence

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts has no yelling at all, none in the Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Changquan, Wing Chun, or taijiquan I have trained. And no yelling in the non-traditional (police/military Sanda) CMA I trained either.

Yelling or a kiap, has its place in training some marital arts, but it is not the only way and it is not found in all martial arts. But I will admit it looks really cool in a movie

 

[K-man]

Kiai and aiki are opposite concepts. That's why they are not present in aikido. Kiai puts out your ki (or intention for those who have difficulty understanding what ki is about), in aikido you harmonize with the opponents ki, putting your own out there through the use of kiai interupts this harmonizing. That's why aikido focuses on deeper, claming breaths. They help you focus on blending with the energy as you breath in to recieve the attack and breath out to redirect it.

Then again the kiai can disrupt your opponent's Ki.

Kiai - combative shout
The term kiai is sometimes talked about in conjunction with aikido training and refers to a "combative shout" used to disrupt or neutralize the attack of an opponent.
The use of this powerful vocalization technique corresponds to the exhalation of breath and concentrates the body and spirit of nage at a specific point.
The end result of a well-executed kiai is a disruption uke's ki flow and a dissipation of his attack.
Often uke's movement will be frozen for a brief instant thus presenting nage with an excellent opportunity to apply a technique.
O-Sensei frequently used kiai as a tool to set up and control his uke. He used it particularly often when demonstrating with the sword.
Ironically, the Founder's use of this technique is so effective that his ukes' attacks often appear half-hearted because they have been interrupted by his well-timed kiai.
http://www.aikidoschool-senshinkan.be/Beelden/Exploring the Founder.pdf

and ...

This social climate affected the practice of postwar aikido in which training tended to be low-keyed and non-martial. Further, the use of atemi, kiai, and weapons were discouraged because of the image of militarism they conjured up and fear of possible reprisals from occupation forces who had initially banned the practice of Japanese martial arts. This observation refers specifically to the Aikikai, by far the largest aikido organization. Yoshinkan Aikido retained the practice of atemi and kiai, and Kenji Tomiki introduced a sport component in his approach entered at Waseda University.
http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2013/...f-aikido-technique-article-by-stanley-pranin/

We only use it with funakogi but as the quote says, i have seen practitioners of Yoshinkan Aikido using kiai. :asian:

 

[Cyriacus]

Of course you can. Yelling can be a tool to teach them that. We're talking beginners learning to yell. Not everyone automatically knows how their body works. Still sounds like the socially conditioned people you mentioned lack confidence.

There are ways you can support yelling - This one though, i ask that you ask a few random untrained people to tense their abdomens without sucking their guts in. Everyone can do it, easy as pie

 

[mook jong man]

We don't yell in Wing Chun because it takes away from the beautiful stacatto sound of our fists hitting someone in the face.

But seriously , I believe it comes down to practical reasons , Wing Chun uses rapid attacking movements that are closely chained together in timing.

When would you start yelling ?
At the start of the chain , in the middle , or when you do the finishing technique ?
Pretty soon you would be hyperventilating and out of breath , in other words wasting energy that could probably be better utilised to do the actual fighting itself.

For Wing Chun natural breathing works best.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Then again the kiai can disrupt your opponent's Ki.
We only use it with funakogi but as the quote says, i have seen practitioners of Yoshinkan Aikido using kiai. :asian:

I shouldn't have said they aren't present in aikido. What I should have said is they mostly aren't present during the aiki actions themselves in the same manner you would use one while striking. They can be used during the pauses between actions. Also I have seen aikidoka use the kiai of "oooooooh" when when blending with the energy which is a type of kiai, but it is a kiai meant to blend with energy not disrupt it.

The post I had written would have explained that better but well, you know...

My teacher follows they aikikai and I haven't seen him kiai. I'm all for the use of kiai in its apporpriate contexts, but to each his own.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Another secondary reason for the kihap is to attract students to your class. Many people who know nothing about martial arts expect shouting so when they hear the loud kihaps of the students in your class they may become curious and decide to have a look. When they see a good dynamic class with all the the students showing plenty of spirit by shouting loud when they punch and kick they may decide that this is the class for them. Of course many people aren't looking for that kind thing.

 

[K-man]

Another secondary reason for the kihap is to attract students to your class.

Yeah, right! :lfao:

 

[Tez3]

Another secondary reason for the kihap is to attract students to your class. Many people who know nothing about martial arts expect shouting so when they hear the loud kihaps of the students in your class they may become curious and decide to have a look. When they see a good dynamic class with all the the students showing plenty of spirit by shouting loud when they punch and kick they may decide that this is the class for them. Of course many people aren't looking for that kind thing.

I assume you posted tongue in cheek here?

 

[RTKDCMB]

I assume you posted tongue in cheek here?

That depends on whose tongue in whose cheek.

 

[Gnarlie]

That depends on whose tongue in whose cheek.

Creepy.

Gnarlie

 

[Aiki Lee]

That depends on whose tongue in whose cheek.

Intriguing...





jk :lol:

 

[Keramory]

I personally disliked the yelling and noises when I was young even up to recently. I also know I'm not the only one, especially when I was younger. I'm fairly quiet and the idea of yelling was a turn off.
I now know, as most experienced martial artists hopefully know, the sounds are very important so of course I add them in.

I think its just something you grow to understand and its the teachers job to instruct on the importance of the noises...but give the student time to adjust, even more so if a child.

 

[Metal]

how many kids watch Kung Fu Panda or The Ninja Rangers and walk around kiai-ing just to sound cool?

I think that's funny, coz there are sooooo many kids being noisy and yelling/screaming and then when they're aloud or even encouraged to do it in martial art classes then they don't do it. ^^

 

[donald1]

"in the hopes that she'll still want to join. She's a super kid, but I think that a bit of discipline and confidence would do a world of wonders for her."
[/QUOTE]

thats a good idea, after 7 years of being on the football and wrestling team and 3 in karate. discipline and confidence goes a longer way then any expectations. if those that is applied theres a lot of possibilities just waiting.(its difficult and takes time but is worth it)

 

[Happy-Papi]

Coming from CQC and traditional FMA we don't yell and try to be very silent as much as possible. Even when we choke we try to wrap our legs and clasp the nostril and mouth to prevent feet clatters, squeals and cries. It was hard for me not to sound off when practicing at first but I got used to it after I was scolded by my seniors when I brought yelling in our practice. They said that yelling is good but is a big no for our group since we focus on silence. One senior even commented, "Do you want to scare him or do you want to kill him?", lol. Instead of yelling, laughing is very normal in our group during training. Laughing is something like a kiai to us and laughing is very normal for Filipinos since we are a happy people

I passed the same training to my son and he too is not comfortable with yelling but since he does Judo and Karate also, he has to follow their rules. We noticed that he yells only during competition and only during a finishing strike/blow or throw. His yell style is so fake and often times delayed that it is funny to watch. There are several times that we saw him give a sleeper choke and only yelled when the simpans were running towards them to assist his opponent because he was sleeping and that was about 6 to 10 seconds after the KO plus yelling and choking is a total mismatch, lol. Another time is when he yelled seconds after his opponent is on the ground after a judo throw. Another is when he kicked his opponent on the neck and yelled seconds after and it was a KO. It seems that his yelling is his way of telling the simpans, "look ma, it's a KO" but the delay is funny. Luckily his instructors from other arts understands his sound off delays. They understand that he is trying to fit in by trying to yell but the delay is funny and can probably be taken as offensive or as a joke by the opponent's team. Imagine being KO and hearing a yell seconds after???

 

[RTKDCMB]

Another reason for the yell is to help with correct breathing (some people hold their breath when sparring or performing patterns and thus run out of breath easily) - it's hard to hold your breath when you are yelling loudly.

 

[Argus]

I've taken a little Karate, and it was a very un-natural thing, for a number of reasons. I'm a very quiet person by nature, and also wasn't really shown how to do it at first.

Moreover, I still don't really understand it. I'm sure there is a good reason why it is used, but coming from a logical standpoint, and a Wing-Chun perspective, the following things kind of baffle me:

1. When do you use it? You obviously can't kiai with every strike. And when you do, you've just expelled all (or a very large portion) of the air in your lungs, requiring you to breath in immediately after to recover your breath.

2. This one is really big. I wouldn't ever want to open my mouth in the middle of a fight if I don't have to. It seems the jaw and teeth would be very susceptible to damage the moment you do; and that moment which you commit yourself to a strike is also the moment that you are most likely to be struck yourself.

3. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't actually know when or if a strike will connect until the moment it does, and if I have to think about yelling at that point, I've already missed my opportunity. Moreover, if I yell any sooner, I'm either giving myself away, or making myself look really funny if my attack is interrupted!

Most likely, I simply don't understand the purpose of Kiai, though. Is it just for the mindset when executing the kata, and not for practical application, or are there other considerations that I'm failing to realize?

We don't yell in Wing Chun because it takes away from the beautiful stacatto sound of our fists hitting someone in the face.

But seriously , I believe it comes down to practical reasons , Wing Chun uses rapid attacking movements that are closely chained together in timing.

When would you start yelling ?
At the start of the chain , in the middle , or when you do the finishing technique ?
Pretty soon you would be hyperventilating and out of breath , in other words wasting energy that could probably be better utilised to do the actual fighting itself.

For Wing Chun natural breathing works best.

I'm imagining something along the lines of a machine gun.

"A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A"

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yielding is contradict to calmness. MA training suppose to teach you, "When a mountain collapse right in front of you, your facial expression should not change."

Just watched a movie "You're Next" the other day. In that movie, instead of like all other horror movies that a girl was running, falling, and screaming. The girl in that movie was very quite (so she won't exposed her location) and killed the bad guys one after another.