Purpose of naihanchi

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Learning his techniques are not hard if you have a clear understanding of human anatomy. I have all of my students pick up a copy of "Atlas of Anatomy" and we use it as a classroom text book. It can be purchased at Border's for $7.99, and is a great bargain.

This book is not as deep as "Grey's Anatomy", but unless you are a med school student, you really don't need "Grey's".

The illustrations are full color and easy to learn from. There is enough text to be informative, without loosing your attention.

We use it for bone structure, nerve and muscle locations and trails. We have all found it very useful.


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

 

[DavidCC]

I am not so much intimidated by the difficulty of the techniques, it's more like I don't really want that guy to hit me!

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

I don't blame you...

On one of the tapes that I have of him, he hits one of his uke's in the side of the neck so hard that after the uke hit the ground, Oyata stood there over him for a minute or two grunting at him to get up... Eventually, Oyata bent over to shake the uke. The uke did not respond, and Oyata looked over at the camera man and signaled him to cut off the camera with the universal signal... drawing his hand across his own throat, as if to say... "He's DEAD"

As I stated earlier, there is never a need to injure anyone to demonstrate a technique. I never have, and I never will. It is just plain wrong...

We have come a long way over the years, and with all that we have learned about human anatomy, and the kind of physical issues that people can be walking around with, and not even know about, the last thing we need to do is effect them in a way that will make their issue worse and cause them harm.


Maybe you can attend one of my seminars at some point in the future and we can share some good training together...


Yours in Tang Soo Do,

Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

 

[DavidCC]

I don't blame you...

On one of the tapes that I have of him, he hits one of his uke's in the side of the neck so hard that after the uke hit the ground, Oyata stood there over him for a minute or two grunting at him to get up... Eventually, Oyata bent over to shake the uke. The uke did not respond, and Oyata looked over at the camera man and signaled him to cut off the camera with the universal signal... drawing his hand across his own throat, as if to say... "He's DEAD"

As I stated earlier, there is never a need to injure anyone to demonstrate a technique. I never have, and I never will. It is just plain wrong...

We have come a long way over the years, and with all that we have learned about human anatomy, and the kind of physical issues that people can be walking around with, and not even know about, the last thing we need to do is effect them in a way that will make their issue worse and cause them harm.


Maybe you can attend one of my seminars at some point in the future and we can share some good training together...


Yours in Tang Soo Do,

Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

LOL! Of course that could have meant "stop the tape" too of course.

 

[pstarr]

I know Master Oyata fairly well - have trained with him on numerous occasions - even had him sleep on my couch! He's a piece of karate history that's still out walking around...very knowledgeable, very highly skilled-

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

I met Oyata Sensei back in 1985. He is incredibly skilled. He also is very personable. I witnessed him to use a two finger strike to the neck of an uke demonstrating a Naihanchin bunkai. The uke dropped like a lead weight and went into seizures. Pretty scary sight.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

I completely agree with all that has been stated as to Oyata’s knowledge, skill level and being a living legend. I have learned a great deal over the years, just dissecting his tapes. Please don’t think for a minute that I have anything less then great respect for him in these areas, but as JH has just stated… he took an uke from the seminar (possibly a complete stranger that PAID to be present) and cause him severe damage…


There is NO way that this can be justified, what so ever…


I had a long conversation with Josh P. yesterday morning regarding these issues. Josh has trained with Oyata closely and knows him very well. Josh stated that in recent years, due to a number of things, including his liver transplant, that Oyata has stopped teaching in that fashion, and is not interested in causing injuries any more. This was welcome information for me, and I am sure that it will help many of you to feel better about going to any future “Oyata” seminars in your area…


Yours in Tang Soo Do,

Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

 

[Chizikunbo]

I completely agree with all that has been stated as to Oyata’s knowledge, skill level and being a living legend. I have learned a great deal over the years, just dissecting his tapes. Please don’t think for a minute that I have anything less then great respect for him in these areas, but as JH has just stated… he took an uke from the seminar (possibly a complete stranger that PAID to be present) and cause him severe damage…

There is NO way that this can be justified, what so ever…


I had a long conversation with Josh P. yesterday morning regarding these issues. Josh has trained with Oyata closely and knows him very well. Josh stated that in recent years, due to a number of things, including his liver transplant, that Oyata has stopped teaching in that fashion, and is not interested in causing injuries any more. This was welcome information for me, and I am sure that it will help many of you to feel better about going to any future “Oyata” seminars in your area…


Yours in Tang Soo Do,

Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

Hello all,
just to clear things up, I personally do not have any special relationship with Oyata sensei...but he live about 20 minutes away from my home he in Kansas City...as such I have known and been involved with many of the past and present senior Yudansha of Taika Oyatas. My personal instructors actually lived and worked in the hombu (HQ) dojo for 14 years. I have many great stories, and such about oyata sensei, and have been at his demonstrations and such in the past. But it is my teachers not myself that has (had) any special relationship with him.
In any case, Oyata Taika's technique is unparalled, I have never met, or heard of anyone that can duplicate his technique. You see Oyata Sensei studied with two Ryukyu Bushi (Samurai) and was handed down complete family systems. He was taught, (trained) as a Samurai/Bushi unlike how we train today. His training was rough, and harsh. His teachers would maybe show him a technique once, and if he forgot it it was too bad for him. You see in post ww2 okinawa it was a kill or be killed situation. Taika was forced to use the deadly technique in order to save his life. In his later years, he shifted to a much more peaceful mindset, and thus Oyata Shin Shu Ho Ryu was born. Taika teaches Ryukyu martial arts for the betterment of society, and so people can build peaceful communities like the Ryukyu people lived in peace without weapons etc.
Taikas method for teaching the meanins of forms is basically allow the student to develop the "inner eyes" for seeing the true contents of ryukyu protection arts. This is the best approach I have ever seen or heard of from any martial artist in regards to understanding the true protection arts. When I began to understand this, it was a whole new world as it was. You could study 1 single form your whole life, and never understand it. The art just gets deeper, and deeper not matter how far you delve into it. For every movement you see in a Kata/Hyung there should be at least 1000 true applications...for each of these there is an entire philosophical and spiritual reasoning, and background. To achieve true technique you really have to put your heart and soul into your limbs, and allow your spirit to flow out, as a true expression of protection technique. My personal instructor Shiro Shintaku Hanshi (9th dan) trained under Oyata Sensei as his personal student for 14 years eventually gaining a 7th dan. He translated his book, wrote for the magazines, drove to and from airport, helped with housework etc. While these things alone may not imporve physical technique in anyway, it did provide him a chance to get to know Oyata Sensei as a person, his dreams, goals, wishes, philosophy etc. Which greatly enhanced his understanding of the whole art. He was pretty much like a servent to Oyata Sensei, thus a true personal student, something only a few people can claim. Through Shintaku Doshu, I have come to appriciate the true teachings of Oyata sensei, as well as other great martial artists as a complete way of life. I understand that there is a reason for everything Oyata sensei has done, but he is human and does make mistakes...he will tell you that. But everything he does is for the benefit of his students. It truly just brings him joy to show to true contents of Ryukyu protection arts. He learned this same way, it was maybe a test of heart to continue the training. But as I understand it, Taika Oyata keeps his students best intrest at heart, he just stems from a different era (he is almost 80), culture (post WW2 Okinawa) than we do and thus has a different vision of life. He even quite smoking not for himslef but for a student of his who has a severe eye condition and the smoke made him really sick... It is my personal opinion that Oyata Sensei truly just wants to help all people, and see the true protection arts passed on to the next generation.
Tang Soo!
--josh

 

[meanbean]

I have spent the past 35 years cross-training in Tang Soo Do, Shotokan, Isshinryu and Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu, as well as in Hakko-Ryu Ju Jutsu and Wing Chun Gung Fu. What the understanding that I have established as a result of this intense cross-training is; how each grandmaster established his vision of what technique is, and how it should be applied.

You established all that by cross training all these different arts in just 35 years?
...You have 'established' what each grandmasters vision of technique and how it should be applied?
How can you claim it was 'intense' cross training when there is more than a lifetimes knowledge and wisdom to learn in one style?
There is too much to know and learn in the Moo Duk Kwan style of Tang Soo Do to have time to train in other arts. If you claim you understand enough to be able to train in so many other styles then i would suggest you are more confused than understand the style you primarily studied.
In reading your posts there is no doubt that you are a very knowledgable person that has done a significant amount of research historically, but to truly understand, learn and develope one's art will take more than your life time.
I would suggest that you have simply learnt more head knowledge....but to 'establish' the fundementals and what is true to all these different arts and to understand them enough would be folly!
You may, of course, suggest i should be more open minded to other styles and arts. Other styles and arts are perfectly fine for whoever wishes to study them, but to attempt to embrace many will only limit yourself in one!

Regards

martin

Tang Soo!

 

[Makalakumu]

Other styles and arts are perfectly fine for whoever wishes to study them, but to attempt to embrace many will only limit yourself in one!

I completely disagree. In fact, I would say that if you limit your study of TSD to just TSD, then you don't and will never really understand TSD. All along TSD's syncretic lineage information was obscured or never learned. Look at what is actually being discussed in this thread. Without cross training, your hyung will never get beyond the level of interpretive dance.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

I completely disagree. In fact, I would say that if you limit your study of TSD to just TSD, then you don't and will never really understand TSD. All along TSD's syncretic lineage information was obscured or never learned. Look at what is actually being discussed in this thread. Without cross training, your hyung will never get beyond the level of interpretive dance.

I agree with mean bean, on the contrary. TSD is more than you think, if that's your perspective. It's a philosophy, a way of life. And just because GM Hwang Kee may not have learned the original application of some forms doesn't mean he was ignorant. The man was a genius. You can still discover more and more about the hidden meanings behind moves in hyung without going to another martial art. I have, just with my TSD training. In fact, I feel a great hesitancy about going to another martial art, because TSD does things differently from other martial arts. We're distinct. The way karate does things is perfectly legitimate, but it's not necessarily TSD.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

You established all that by cross training all these different arts in just 35 years?

...You have 'established' what each grandmasters vision of technique and how it should be applied?
How can you claim it was 'intense' cross training when there is more than a lifetimes knowledge and wisdom to learn in one style?
There is too much to know and learn in the Moo Duk Kwan style of Tang Soo Do to have time to train in other arts. If you claim you understand enough to be able to train in so many other styles then i would suggest you are more confused than understand the style you primarily studied.
In reading your posts there is no doubt that you are a very knowledgable person that has done a significant amount of research historically, but to truly understand, learn and develope one's art will take more than your life time.
I would suggest that you have simply learnt more head knowledge....but to 'establish' the fundementals and what is true to all these different arts and to understand them enough would be folly!
You may, of course, suggest i should be more open minded to other styles and arts. Other styles and arts are perfectly fine for whoever wishes to study them, but to attempt to embrace many will only limit yourself in one!

Regards

martin

Tang Soo!

Martin,
It always blows my mind when I read postings like the one that you made here…

The statement used by many grandmasters and masters of the different martial arts systems that states; “it will take you a lifetime to learn ONE system!” was designed to keep their students from wondering off and joining other schools. After all, if you are my student and find that there is something out there that may be better; your money will stop flowing into my bank account.

Before there were all of these different systems of martial arts, before the different systems splintered apart and became separate associations as in Tang Soo Do, there were simply teachers, students and the bad guy with the sword that was intent on cutting off your head. Your teacher taught you everything that he could to keep that bad swordsman from accomplishing his goal. When you teacher felt that he could teach you no more, he arranged for you to travel to another instructor who had established a reputation for a specific “WAY”. He would send you to this other teacher to learn what you could and then you would return to him and share what you had learned with him. This program of being sent off to other teachers would continue over and over again until you had established enough knowledge and ability to devise your own “WAY”.

Then you would take on disciples and teach them you’re “WAY”. This is how all of the systems that are taught today came to be.

Do you think that KJN Hwang Kee had to spend a lifetime in one system to establish Tang Soo Do? KJN Hwang Kee studied many different systems before he devised his own art and system. By the way, if you check back in Tang Soo Do history you will see that Lee Won Kuk was one of many Koreans that traveled to Japan during the occupation and trained directly under Gichen Funakoshi. Both Lee Won Kuk and Choi Hong Hi earned their Nidan (2nd degree black belt) in Shotokan under Funakoshi prior to returning to Korea.

Lee Won Kuk taught what he learned from Funakoshi to KJN Hwang Kee. Prior to that time, KJN Hwang Kee was teaching Hwa Soo Do. His students didn’t like the Hwan Soo Do and he had a difficult time keeping a consistent enrollment. When He started teaching the material that came from Funakoshi the students were drawn to it and he built his system using that material. That material was known as “Shotokan”.

KJN Hwang Kee did bring his own unique flavor to the system, making it his own, but I can tell you that it didn’t take him a lifetime of study to put it all together.

From your profile page, it appears that you are an 2nd Dan in Soo Bahk Do. Is that correct? Where do you train? Who is your Sa Bom Nim?

I am a 7th Dan in Tang Soo Do, as well as having earned 1st Dan in both Isshinryu Karate and Hakko-Ryu Ju Jutsu. I have trained extensively in Shotokan, Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu and Wing Chun Gung Fu, but hold no rank in these systems.

Each of the “Karate-Based” systems that I have trained in pre-dates Tang Soo Do as incorporated by KJN Hwang Kee. By learning these systems and establishing from that training what was understood and taught by each of the instructor that I trained with, based on what their grandmasters passed down to them I was able to better understand and make better use of that which we perform in Tang Soo Do.


You made this statement:
In reading your posts there is no doubt that you are a very knowledgable person that has done a significant amount of research historically, but to truly understand, learn and develope one's art will take more than your life time.
I would suggest that you have simply learnt more head knowledge....but to 'establish' the fundementals and what is true to all these different arts and to understand them enough would be folly!

You have no clue as to what amount of time I have spent training in these other systems, who my instructors are and what they bring to the table or what my ability to comprehend and compartmentalize what I am taught is. Your claim that what I state is no more than “Folly” is irresponsible on your part, and with the little experience that you bring to the table here, you are in no position to be making such statements about me…

If you never step out of your Tang Soo Do box and expose yourself to what older systems in the lineage teach, you will never be in a position to discuss these issues intelligently. Take off the blinders, step out in the sunlight and learn…

 

[Victor Smith]

Hi Martin,

I'm afraid I too disagree, especially that to understand and develop one's art takes more than one lifetime. Simply that is because there is on set definition on what it takes to develop one's art.

A martial art may be as simple as one technique, or another a handfull of moves, or as complex as Daito Ryu with 40 years of study to learn all of the techniques. It is a very open ended definition after all, hinging on the words 'ones' art'.

One of my instructors fellow students began training in Isshinryu in 1959 and then spent the rest of his life working on 8 forms application potential. Towards the end of his life, when I met him he shared 800 applications for Isshinryu's 8 kata and that was only a portion of his art that he shared with his students. I'm referring to the late Sherman Harrill.

On the other hand in my 35 years besides non-stop study of Isshinryu I've also trained with many others some for 30 years, some for 10 and some for other periods of study. This exposes you to what others may be doing, gives you a definate shape that may not be in your art to work to counter, and in no way inteferrs long term study in your art.

We are all in different relationships with our instructors. Some are in charge and then we're only students, other times we're on our own and work to pursue our training as long as possible.

BTW those studies do nothing with history. Arts are worked on the floor, in sweat, new forms ,etc. At one time or another I've studied several hundreds of forms from many systems. That doesn't detract from my primary art, but gives tactile knowledge.

Many systems have been crafted by people with far less study. Many have been crafted by people with more study.

It's never important to do everything, it's important to do what you need to make your art work for you.

 

[Victor Smith]

Just to take this thread back to theme, of doing Naifanchi kata with one's back against the wall, I've always enjoyed those stories.

Yes of course, the sideways stepping of Naifanchi could be used in a limited situation with ones back against the wall. If you want to see a more modern example, the latest James Bond - Casino Royale - shows a fight scene hundreds of feet in the air on a crane and guess what, with their backs against the crane the movements look really like naifanchi.

I'm not sure about the rice paddy version as I understand Okinawa doesn't grow their rice in paddy's. But a modern equivalent is on a construction site you might use that stepping through a floor's rebar before a concrete pour.

Yes this gets a little off the wall.

Motobu Chokoi in his books on Karate in the 20's shows many applications from Naifanchi, and none were done with their backs against the wall.

Even more so if you goto Okinawabbtv and see how Okinawan Sumo (village wrestling) is done, it's not a stretch that many of naifanchi's leg techniques are counters for standing grappling, using the leg slices to off balance someone grabbing you and then continuing to the side to down them.

None of which btw require any pressure point more specific than the one that starts at the top of your head and bottoms on your toes. That point and afew decades pounding the maikawara give enough power to make all of the applications work.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Sensei Smith,
I am enjoying your contributions to this discussion board...

The grouping of Seisan video clips was great. Some of them I have scene, and others were new to me. I enjoyed the version from Morio Higaonna the most, and it was very timely, as he will be here in Michigan January 17-20, 2008 for a 4-day training camp.


If you have that time available and would like to attend I can send you the info to sign up. It will be held in Ann Arbor, Michigan.


Note: For those of you who are not familiar with Sensei Higaonna, he is a world renowned Goju Ryu instructor from Okinawa. He was one of the featured instructors on the show; The Human Weapon. For those of you who saw the Okinawan segment, he was the 71 year old that was pounding on the rock.


This training camp is open to everyone...



Thank you,

 

[meanbean]

I completely disagree. In fact, I would say that if you limit your study of TSD to just TSD, then you don't and will never really understand TSD. All along TSD's syncretic lineage information was obscured or never learned. Look at what is actually being discussed in this thread. Without cross training, your hyung will never get beyond the level of interpretive dance.

I understand your frustration...
but what is fundemental to Moo Duk Kwan TSD has been passed down, one doesn't need to cross train in other arts to discover this.
I totally respect those who wish to train in more than one art, but if you think you know all there is to know about the one art you study to then study others then you are gravely mistaken.
What you are all discussing here which relates to the origin of certain Hyungs is historically interesting, and revealing yet most of which is not known or set in stone, and this does not add anything to what can be passed down and taught to me through the art i study.
If you are not getting the knowledge and wisdom through your art then i would question who it is who teaches you.

Finally, to say without cross training, my hyung will never get beyond interpretive dance is a very silly and empty thing to say. A dancer would not know any application but to simply replicate moves for the sake of it.

regards

martin

Tang Soo!

 

[Lynne]

I understand your frustration...
but what is fundemental to Moo Duk Kwan TSD has been passed down, one doesn't need to cross train in other arts to discover this.
I totally respect those who wish to train in more than one art, but if you think you know all there is to know about the one art you study to then study others then you are gravely mistaken.
What you are all discussing here which relates to the origin of certain Hyungs is historically interesting, and revealing yet most of which is not known or set in stone, and this does not add anything to what can be passed down and taught to me through the art i study.
If you are not getting the knowledge and wisdom through your art then i would question who it is who teaches you.

Finally, to say without cross training, my hyung will never get beyond interpretive dance is a very silly and empty thing to say. A dancer would not know any application but to simply replicate moves for the sake of it.

regards

martin

Tang Soo!

Hi Martin and welcome.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about "knowing all there is to know about one's art." I have never read the words of any Master here stating that they knew all there was to know about their primary art.

My understanding is that people study various arts so they can better understand and better apply their own art - build a wider knowledge base/enhanced applications. I suppose you disagree with that? Why?

I'm an 8th gup, only been studying 5 months and I can see where Tang Soo Do will be a lifetime journey, but at some point, why wouldn't another martial art enhance my performance of Tang Soo Do? Do you think another art would detract in some way?

Lynne

 

[Lynne]

Sensei Smith,
I am enjoying your contributions to this discussion board...

The grouping of Seisan video clips was great. Some of them I have scene, and others were new to me. I enjoyed the version from Morio Higaonna the most, and it was very timely, as he will be here in Michigan January 17-20, 2008 for a 4-day training camp.


If you have that time available and would like to attend I can send you the info to sign up. It will be held in Ann Arbor, Michigan.


Note: For those of you who are not familiar with Sensei Higaonna, he is a world renowned Goju Ryu instructor from Okinawa. He was one of the featured instructors on the show; The Human Weapon. For those of you who saw the Okinawan segment, he was the 71 year old that was pounding on the rock.


This training camp is open to everyone...



Thank you,

I remember the segment where 71 year old Sensei Higaonna was pounding on the rock. Very impressive! You all are very lucky to learn under Sensei Higaonna.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Hi Martin and welcome.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about "knowing all there is to know about one's art." I have never read the words of any Master here stating that they knew all there was to know about their primary art.

My understanding is that people study various arts so they can better understand and better apply their own art - build a wider knowledge base/enhanced applications. I suppose you disagree with that? Why?

I'm an 8th gup, only been studying 5 months and I can see where Tang Soo Do will be a lifetime journey, but at some point, why wouldn't another martial art enhance my performance of Tang Soo Do? Do you think another art would detract in some way?

Lynne

I believe what he's saying, and something with which I would agree, is that, while training in another martial art might be beneficial for comparison, it's unnecessary. You can never really know all about TSD, because it's not just a set of forms passed down; it's a philosophy. There are always students who can surpass the master by gaining a greater knowledge and understanding of the underlying principles. I've no hope of that for myself, but do I think that because I don't train in karate or some other art that my knowledge of TSD will suffer or be incomplete? Certainly not. To talk as if one already knows everything is hubris, and to claim that just because one has studied several arts, even for as long as Master Jay has (very much worthy of respect, being no little feat), doesn't inherently mean anything other than that you've spread out quite wide. In fact, it can be dangerous, since as I said before each art does things slightly differently, and cross-influence can sometimes be a confusing factor rather than an enhancing factor. I personally feel a near-instinctive negative reaction whenever I hear someone claim to be a master or black belt in so many different arts. It's all down to the teacher, and it's all down to the student. There are McDojos all over if you want to get your black belt in a year. I don't doubt Master Jay's abilities or knowledge; I'm just explaining my perspective, which I gather meanbean shares.

EDIT: And yeah, Higaonna-sensei was really amazing.

Tang Soo!

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

JT,
You are correct… There are McDojo’s everywhere we turn. I have never studied in any of them myself, but they are out there.

In Isshinryu Karate for example, my instructors have been:
Grandmaster Willie Adams, 10th Dan
Hanshi Bill Pogue – 8th Dan
Hanshi Sam Santilli- 8th Dan
Hanshi Eugene Woods- 8th Dan
Kyoshi George Reynolds- 7th Dan
Kyoshi Burt Ross- 8th Dan (Pass away –Nov, 2005)

In Shotokan:
O’Sensei James V. Morrone, Jr. – 7th Dan

In Motobu-Ha Shito Ryu:
Shihan Garner Train- 5th Dan

In Hakko-Ryu Ju Jutsu:
Kaiden Shihan Garner Train – 9th Dan

In Wing Chun Gung Fu:
Sifu Garner Train
Sifu Bruce Silver
Sifu Jeff Kolman is the Wing Chun instructor in my school

There are many others that I have worked with over the years, but these are the primary instructors that I have worked and trained under for the past 36 years.

You won’t find any McDojo’s in this group of instructors.

You are also correct JT in that, taking your training wide can be a serious problem. My history with these systems goes back to 1972. I still have relationships with all of these instructors and still see them as time permits.

If you don’t take your training deep, you may as well take up aerobics or basketball…

As I have stated to you in the past; we can discuss these issues on a discussion board till we can’t type anymore. The only way to move forward for someone like you, that has only a limited level of experience is to find a way to get together and train. That is the only way to make sense of this for you without going around in circles…

Enough said,