Punching

[LawDog]

The key to closed fist striking is not wheather it is verticle or horizontal. What counts is the angle of the wrist. One should keep the wrist in such an angle so the the striking surface is on the larger two knucles.
Make a fist then look at it, you will see that the lower knucklers are on an angle, (off to the side of the wrist / forearm), where the larger two knuckles are in a stright line. Keeping your knuckles and supporting bone structure in a straight line with an impact your hand will absorb an impact better.
How to align properly,
Horiz. Strike,
Hold your fist agaist a wall with the large knucles against the wall. Slide your fist up the wall, face height, now down to the mid-section. You will see the alignment of your wrist changes for proper impacting.
Verticle Strike,
Do the same as the horiz. strike. you will see how the wrist should bend.
:boxing:

 

[LawDog]

Horiz. vs verticle strikes.

Verticle fist strikes, (thumb high), will keep your elbow low, this is good when you need to strike threw a verticle type opening or under your opponents arm. Ex. - between two high chambered arms or stiking under a low arm.

Horiz. fist strikes, (front two knuckles), will cause your striking arms elbow to lift. This works well when you want to strike over something, like an arm or over a shoulder.
:boxing:

 

[megat]

hmmm how bout the eagle eye fist , does that contribute to injury in some way. beacuse one of your finger is kind of sticking out right. without proper training that can be dangerous.

 

[LawDog]

Those type of strikes are usually used on soft and semi soft surfaces. The closed fist is used against soft, semi soft and hard surfaces. The alignment that I have spoken of is needed for the hard surface application and should be used on the semi soft surface.
:ultracool

 

[jks9199]

hmmm how bout the eagle eye fist , does that contribute to injury in some way. beacuse one of your finger is kind of sticking out right. without proper training that can be dangerous.

Those are specialized strikes; the original poster seemed to me to be looking at more conventional punches. The use of the various single knuckle, spearhand, and other strikes using something other than the clenched fist is a whole 'nother topic; they require specialized conditioning, a high level of target awareness, and very careful formation of the fist, or you'll end up with a badly injured hand.

 

[jks9199]

I'm curious to what everyone thinks of the method JKS described in his post. I'm referring to the inverted hook, with the pinky up, thumb down. Not saying this is right or wrong, just looking to further the discussion.

Mike

What do you think of it? I find that it can be a very effective strike, thrown at the proper targets. It can also be deceptive...

But it requires proper alignment, or not only do you lose power -- you hurt your forearm & elbow. And sometimes your shoulder.

 

[LawDog]

This inverted hook's alignment position can be dangerious for the striker. Many of the strikers arm and shoulder joints are either in a locked position or close to it. During heavy impact impact a locked joint can be injured. When your joints are in a lock position, especially through the shoulder area, speed, power and flexability are lost.

 

[MJS]

What do you think of it? I find that it can be a very effective strike, thrown at the proper targets. It can also be deceptive...

But it requires proper alignment, or not only do you lose power -- you hurt your forearm & elbow. And sometimes your shoulder.

Honestly, I have never punched this way. My hand is either vertical or horizontal. I'll be at class again on Tuesday, so when I have access to a focus mit, I'll give it a shot and let you know my results.

Mike

 

[jks9199]

Honestly, I have never punched this way. My hand is either vertical or horizontal. I'll be at class again on Tuesday, so when I have access to a focus mit, I'll give it a shot and let you know my results.

Mike

If you want to try it on your own -- work slowly. It's a very technical punch, and you pretty much have to throw it to the head & above the shoulder. There are some finicky details about when to turn that I just can't describe without showing...

 

[Hawke]

Not sure if this is the same, but I do what looks like the inverted punch JKS described. My inverted hook looks similar to a hook to the face at first but travels down south so people usually miss the block and get a tap on their ribs.

This might be a totally different punch.

Back to veritcal or horizontal. I have been trained for both. When going vertical I like the bounce from my forearm and biceps to launch my punch. So jab (to set up the punch) then vertical punch. Working the ribs I have a tendency to be 45 with palms up. The punch to the throat is almost horizontal with the adam's apple between my first two knuckles (makes a nice fit).

I prefer palm strikes (hurts less on the hands...hehehe).

I have done pushing exercises with the elbows away from the body and elbows tucked inside against the body. The elbows in gives a stronger structure.

Hearing great stuff from other posts.

 

[thedan]

Well, the admin has been e-mailing me, saying I should post, so here goes.

Many times when people talk about punching, they also bring up the subject of proper hand position. ... Some prefer to punch horizontal, some vertical and some in-between, more on a 45 degree angle. ... Do you have a preference?

I use a natural punch. Take the exact posture you'll be in at delivery of the strike and, with a relaxed arm and hand, point at your target. The angle of your pointing hand is the angle your fist should be at when the strike delivers. No unnatural twisting, which induces tension and inhibits speed and power, while misaligning every joint in the punching arm (including the shoulder girdle).

I think the point is often missed and people focus on the hand rather then what is important, which is alignment. As soon as you twist the forearm to make it vertical or horizontal you screw that up. Fist angle is dependent on your shoulder.

Yes, sir, primarily, though I would include the entire posture in this stateement. As posture changes, the natural alignment of the fist changes as well. Interestingly, the natural alignment also tends to keep the two large knuckles in the lead and generally positions the fist to better fit into it's target.

Boxers- what is being forgotten in the discussion of a boxers punch is that they fight from a completely different posture than we do. Their strikes and targets, and the area they have to protect, is defined by rules. They don't have to worry about kicks, low blows, grabs or even frictional pulls. And their hands are taped and heavily gloved, so they get away with strikes that would (and frequently do) dammage their hands in a real fight. They shrug their shoulders up and tuck their chin to protect the head better. The horizontal fist is a natural delivery from this posture. Try it and see for yourself. It just feels right- relaxed, powerful, very fast.

We don't fight like that. Our posture is upright and our shoulders are rounded down (at least for most of the martial arts systems I've seen), and our hands are not protected. That horizontal fist is, in most cases, not a naturally aligned punch for us, and throwing it will misalign your shoulders and arm. The shoulders will raise, the elbow will rotate out ("fly"), and the radius will twist around the ulna. There is little supporting structure, and you are overloading the radius in the strike. It will erquire tension to force this unnatural action, and even the arts that are insistant on teaching this strike will tell you that tension destroys speed and power. You'll also hit too often with the small, easily dammaged knuckles.

Forcing a vertical fist does not seem to be as bad as the horizontal, but still has some similar effects. I prefer to allow the fist to travel a natural path, with no induced tension. It rotates to position as it travels and my supporting posture changes, driven by my stance change. As I strike through the target, the stance continues to change and the fist continues to rotate, naturally. This is an uninhibited whole body delivery. If I want my fist to fit into a target differently, I would change posture to support that aplication, or use a different waepon.

My opinion, based on experience with neck and shoulder problems, interviews with therapists and doctors, research and discussions with some very knowlegable martial artists.

Dan C

 

[exile]

I use a natural punch. Take the exact posture you'll be in at delivery of the strike and, with a relaxed arm and hand, point at your target. The angle of your pointing hand is the angle your fist should be at when the strike delivers. No unnatural twisting, which induces tension and inhibits speed and power, while misaligning every joint in the punching arm (including the shoulder girdle)...

Forcing a vertical fist does not seem to be as bad as the horizontal, but still has some similar effects. I prefer to allow the fist to travel a natural path, with no induced tension. It rotates to position as it travels and my supporting posture changes, driven by my stance change. As I strike through the target, the stance continues to change and the fist continues to rotate, naturally. This is an uninhibited whole body delivery. If I want my fist to fit into a target differently, I would change posture to support that aplication, or use a different waepon.

Dan C

Good post, Dan! I've been experimenting with this kind of punching over the past couple of years. The reasons people have given for skepticism about the use of the horizontal punch as the primary hand-strike weapon make sense to me. Actually, having broken my hand on a multiboard break due to a misalignment of my hand and wrist a couple of years ago has made me a lot more cautious about punching, period—palm heel strikes, hammerfists and knifhands are the things I focus on much more now; I think palm-heel strikes in particular can do enormous damage to a greater range of targets safely. But when I do work on punching, it's more that kind of vertical-oriented `natural' hand configuration—seems less dicey than the classical horizontal twisting punch that the karate-based arts share.