Vertical vs. Horizontal punching

[Andrew Green]

Hooks thrown horizontal impact with the lower knuckles and can break the hand ("Boxers Fracture")

So hooks are safer palm towards you

 

[bignick]

Same here, our hooks are thrown with the "vertical" fist

 

[BlackCatBonz]

you can throw a hook and hit with the knuckles of the index and middle finger quite easily. if you're hitting with the knuckles of the ring and little finger you've probably glanced your punch off of the intended target.
the muscle groups involved for both punches are not entirely different, but with a straight vertical punch coming through your centre, some important stabilizers, IMO, are left out of the mix.
its all about using the right tool for the job.

 

[arnisador]

I've been taught the hook can be thrown either way, but the "boxer's fracture" comment raises concerns. Still, I think thta, by habit, I usually end up going palm-down.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

accidents can happen anytime and the boxers fracture is one of them. you can throw a punch to anywhere on the body and, if not correctly timed, you could suffer all different kinds of sprains and fractures. there is no one foolproof method of striking, which is why there are many tools for the job.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

It seems to me the small knuckles are equally exposed on either hook.

When I throw it with a horizontal fist I find it hard to lead with anything other than the bigger index and middle finger knuckles...but that is likely an issue with the flexibility of the wrist.

Hold your arm out in front of you in the hook position and hold your fist up against something like a wall. Turn your fist from one position to another. What changes?

When I do it I don't notice much of a change insofar as exposure of the knuckles. The pinky knuckles would be closer to the opponent's head, and might be broken if he slipped to the side or faded back, catching them accidentally with his noggin. By the same token they're at risk if he bobs under it and again catches the knuckles just right with the side of his head.

These same risks exist no matter what posture or punch you use. Those small knuckles have to travel with the rest of the hand...and there is always the chance you'll catch him wrong.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Pale Rider]

I agree that I prefer the 3/4 turn on the punch better. It is more medically sound. I agree 100%.

i like to throw 3/4 i think thats what its called ,
its in the middle of the two. that way your bones in the forarm are lined up with
the knuckles .do you think that this is true ?. and i two like to use the elbow

but one of the two it would be the vertical

 

[rutherford]

It is more medically sound.

Sources? Reasoning?

 

[BlackCatBonz]

this is where knowledge of kinesiology is helpful. the upper arm (humerus) can rotate from its relaxed position both medially and laterally. with this understanding, one can apply it to a punch in order to make it as structurally sound as possible. whether the hand is fully pronated or supinated, the humerus will rotate as well to increase the range of motion in the hand. also, the muscles of the antebrachial region both medial and lateral need to work together in order to give it the strength it needs. many people often confuse the muscle groups that are used while employing various hand weapons and motions of the arm. by making yourself aware of the muscles involved from a kinetics standpoint, you increase your ability to train those muscles by concentrating on correct form which includes muscle action and effective range of motion.
i wouldnt worry too much if your radius is crossing your ulna.......its designed to work like that.

 

[silatman]

We train for the vertical fist on all punches except the hook and body shots where we use the horizontal. By using the horizontal hand position for the hook I am better able to slip the opponents punch and contact him in the face as my shoulder seems to be better placed for power. Maybe its the placebo effect that I'm getting on the vertical fist punches, ie, it seems better cause thats what I have been taught.

 

[7starmantis]

this is where knowledge of kinesiology is helpful. the upper arm (humerus) can rotate from its relaxed position both medially and laterally. with this understanding, one can apply it to a punch in order to make it as structurally sound as possible. whether the hand is fully pronated or supinated, the humerus will rotate as well to increase the range of motion in the hand. also, the muscles of the antebrachial region both medial and lateral need to work together in order to give it the strength it needs. many people often confuse the muscle groups that are used while employing various hand weapons and motions of the arm. by making yourself aware of the muscles involved from a kinetics standpoint, you increase your ability to train those muscles by concentrating on correct form which includes muscle action and effective range of motion.
i wouldnt worry too much if your radius is crossing your ulna.......its designed to work like that.

I agree with you about knowing how to train correctly for the right muslce groups, but knowledge of the bones and muslcles of the arm doesn't make either punch more "medically sound" than the other if thats what you were saying. Trust me, while in the process of getting my Masters degree in Physical Therapy I've spent countless hours studying and thinking about the bones and muslces of the arm, I've found nothing to convence me that one punch is "better" than the next.

7sm

 

[RichK]

Interesting how everyone has looked at the process of the arm being locked or not and the striking force of the knuckles/forearm alignment. I did not see anyone (or I missed it) discuss the relationship between choice of weapon (horizontal or vertical fist) and target. The type of weapon used (fist, chop, finger strike) is dependant upon the target. I was just explaining this to my students the other night. If you hit me in the chest with a horizontal fist I will laugh at you as my sternum is protected by my pectorals, but if you turn it over to the vertical position it will fit nicely in there to cave my sternum in. And let's keep the replies down that you are 500 pds and I wont laugh at you if you hit me in the chest, just cuttin' you off at the pass It was a lesson on weapon/target relations.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I agree with you about knowing how to train correctly for the right muslce groups, but knowledge of the bones and muslcles of the arm doesn't make either punch more "medically sound" than the other if thats what you were saying. Trust me, while in the process of getting my Masters degree in Physical Therapy I've spent countless hours studying and thinking about the bones and muslces of the arm, I've found nothing to convence me that one punch is "better" than the next.

7sm

thats my whole point, 7sm. thats why in the martial arts we have several hand weapons available, no one tool is perfect for every job. the design of the human body is such, that it works harmoniously throughout its effective range of motion. the purpose of martial arts in my eyes, is to distort your opponents effective range and thusly defeating him.
i didnt understand the whole "medically sound" comment myself.

 

[7starmantis]

Gotcha

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Interesting how everyone has looked at the process of the arm being locked or not and the striking force of the knuckles/forearm alignment. I did not see anyone (or I missed it) discuss the relationship between choice of weapon (horizontal or vertical fist) and target. The type of weapon used (fist, chop, finger strike) is dependant upon the target. I was just explaining this to my students the other night. If you hit me in the chest with a horizontal fist I will laugh at you as my sternum is protected by my pectorals, but if you turn it over to the vertical position it will fit nicely in there to cave my sternum in. And let's keep the replies down that you are 500 pds and I wont laugh at you if you hit me in the chest, just cuttin' you off at the pass It was a lesson on weapon/target relations.

unless you have giant pectoral muscles, the index and middle finger knuckles of a horizontal fist fit right in there.

 

[RichK]

BlackCat, by using the index and middle knuckle of your fist on me would put your wrist at an awkward enough position that you would hurt more from it than me. "I will pump you up"...lol

 

[BlackCatBonz]

BlackCat, by using the index and middle knuckle of your fist on me would put your wrist at an awkward enough position that you would hurt more from it than me. "I will pump you up"...lol

the best striking area to use with a fist are the index and middle knuckles because the small bones of the hand, specifically the metacarpals are inline with the distal end of the radius......these are usually the same 2 knuckles used to smash through a stack of boards or concrete slabs.
but then again, maybe thousands of martial artists have been wrong all these years.

 

[MJS]

the best striking area to use with a fist are the index and middle knuckles because the small bones of the hand, specifically the metacarpals are inline with the distal end of the radius......these are usually the same 2 knuckles used to smash through a stack of boards or concrete slabs.
but then again, maybe thousands of martial artists have been wrong all these years.

Interesting that you say that. If you raise you hand, make a fist and put it against a wall, you'll notice that its the knuckles that you mention are the ones that contact the wall, but yet people tell you to punch with the first two.

Mike

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Interesting that you say that. If you raise you hand, make a fist and put it against a wall, you'll notice that its the knuckles that you mention are the ones that contact the wall, but yet people tell you to punch with the first two.

Mike

your index finger is your first finger, and your middle is....oh i give up

 

[MJS]

your index finger is your first finger, and your middle is....oh i give up

LOL!! See what happens when you post early in the morning!! Sorry about that. I misread what you posted. Yes, punching with the first 2 is what you see everyone doing.