Public vs private kulo?

[geezer]

^^^^ Baloney. You spent an evening in a hotel with Jim and you think you're an expert on Ku Lo Wing Chun?? You've got a grudge for some reason. Either that or you are really developing some dementia. And for someone who posts very rarely here nowadays, why would you choose now to post and discredit Ku Lo Wing Chun?

Hey Keith, can't you agree to disagree without being insulting? That's uncalled for, and you are better than that. C'mon bro!

 

[Vajramusti]

Hey Keith, can't you agree to disagree without being insulting? That's uncalled for, and you are better than that. C'mon bro!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KPM's comments are not worth a response. I move on.

 

[Danny T]

I have actually studied the Ku Lo system in pretty good depth. I say it is far more than just "some self defense moves." So it was not an "excellent point" because Joy doesn't know what he is talking about. So who do you believe? Someone that has actually studied the system? Or someone that has become rather bitter and crotchety in his old age?

I believe Joy's point was:
The System wasn't taught but that bits and pieces for some self defense was. Was the complete system being taught in the short time Leung Jan was there?

 

[geezer]

I believe Joy's point was:
The System wasn't taught but that bits and pieces for some self defense was. Was the complete system being taught in the short time Leung Jan was there?

Agreed. That's what I was trying to address in my previous post, #20. I also find it hard to understand how the complete system could have been taught in such a limited time-frame. But if the right seeds were planted in fertile soil, I do understand how a complete, and somewhat distinct system of WC could have eventually emerged.

 

[anerlich]

Realising I may be setting up and knocking down a straw man here, even a couple, but maybe "some self defense moves" may be better than a bunch of flowery forms and some chi sao?

Boxing and MT are pretty effective and it could be argued all they are is " a few punches and kicks".

 

[anerlich]

If you believe many of the YM WC student stories, none of them spent decades with him, some high profile ones only a few years in which they learned the complete system (according to some, both the public and private systems. On that basis, learning a substantial amount in two years is not inconceivable. The Gracies didn't spend a huge amount of time with Mitsuo Maeda either.

Of course, most, perhaps all, perhaps even including KuLo's and the Gracies', of these stories require some suspension of disbelief.

 

[KPM]

Hey Keith, can't you agree to disagree without being insulting? That's uncalled for, and you are better than that. C'mon bro!

What? He said Ku Lo Wing Chun was nothing more than "some self defense moves" and not a "system." THAT is insulting. Especially after the multiple times here I have posted to explain how Ku Lo Wing Chun is organized and to point out how untrue that is. Yet he chooses not to believe me. THAT is insulting as well. Here is yet another occasion when I am chastised for saying something yet someone else seems free to be disrespectful. Why is that???

 

[KPM]

I'm feeling really bitter and crotchety lately, so let me chime in! Factually speaking, Joy is right. Leung Jan only lived a couple of years after retiring to Gu-lo village. So there is no way he could have taught the whole WC system from scratch.

---Yes, maybe you are developing some dementia as well! The people from Ku Lo...who should know better than Joy or you....said he was there teaching for 3 years. He taught a "condensed" or "refined" version of his Wing Chun....something easily learned in 3 years. He lived amongst them and saw them daily for 3 years. You don't think someone could develop a firm foundation in Wing Chun in 3 years? So what "facts" are you referring to?

----Penchak Silat Serak is based upon 18 Jurus. Each Juru is a short set of movements, similar to the 18 short sets in Ku Lo Wing Chun. Maha Guru Stevan Plinck has told me personally that he could teach someone to fight with just 2 or 3 of the Jurus. Why would Wing Chun be any different?

 

[KPM]

So let me explain....once again...about Ku Lo Wing Chun to dispel this idea that it is "only a collection of self-defense moves" and not a "system."

First, the villagers say that Leung Jan was there for 3 years before his death. So why do people here keep repeating this "only a couple of years" thing? 3 years is plenty of time to develop a firm foundation in Wing Chun. As Andrew pointed out, many of Ip Man's students were only with him for around the same amount of time.

Knowing he didn't have long to teach, Leung Jan "refined" his decades of Wing Chun experience down to what he considered the essentials and changed the way he taught the system. He took portions of the forms and broke them out into shorter sets of 3 or so movements each. That way they could be repeated over and over individually to really develop them. Each set contained a core concept as well as important techniques. Many of the more advanced sets also taught a specific footwork pattern. Each of these short sets had a version that was also practiced on the dummy. There was no dummy form to learn, but the short sets could be mixed and matched and strung together however you please to create a great variety of movements to practice on the dummy. Each of the short sets could also be practiced in combination with others to create longer sets. Each of the short sets had a 2 man drill or Chi Sau exercise that taught the concept behind the set. The concept behind each of the short sets was also utilized in free Chi Sau. I'm not convinced that Leung Jan taught this part....but people realized that one could easily pick up the double knives and with some adaptations apply each of the short sets with knives in hand as well.

Now, does that not sound like a "system" to you? Does that sound like "just a collection of self defense moves"??? Personally, I think it was pretty ingenious on Leung Jan's part, so it kind of ticks me off when Joy repeatedly posts to discredit what Leung Jan achieved at the end of his life.

And to just decide you know all about an entire version of Wing Chun simply from watching a few youtube videos and spending a couple of hours talking to a Sifu in that system.....that you know more about it than someone that has actually studied the system and been granted instructor status.......is that not insulting?

 

[wckf92]

So let me explain....once again...about Ku Lo Wing Chun to dispel this idea that it is "only a collection of self-defense moves" and not a "system."

First, the villagers say that Leung Jan was there for 3 years before his death. So why do people here keep repeating this "only a couple of years" thing? 3 years is plenty of time to develop a firm foundation in Wing Chun. As Andrew pointed out, many of Ip Man's students were only with him for around the same amount of time.

Knowing he didn't have long to teach, Leung Jan "refined" his decades of Wing Chun experience down to what he considered the essentials and changed the way he taught the system. He took portions of the forms and broke them out into shorter sets of 3 or so movements each. That way they could be repeated over and over individually to really develop them. Each set contained a core concept as well as important techniques. Many of the more advanced sets also taught a specific footwork pattern. Each of these short sets had a version that was also practiced on the dummy. There was no dummy form to learn, but the short sets could be mixed and matched and strung together however you please to create a great variety of movements to practice on the dummy. Each of the short sets could also be practiced in combination with others to create longer sets. Each of the short sets had a 2 man drill or Chi Sau exercise that taught the concept behind the set. The concept behind each of the short sets was also utilized in free Chi Sau. I'm not convinced that Leung Jan taught this part....but people realized that one could easily pick up the double knives and with some adaptations apply each of the short sets with knives in hand as well.

Now, does that not sound like a "system" to you? Does that sound like "just a collection of self defense moves"??? Personally, I think it was pretty ingenious on Leung Jan's part, so it kind of ticks me off when Joy repeatedly posts to discredit what Leung Jan achieved at the end of his life.

And to just decide you know all about an entire version of Wing Chun simply from watching a few youtube videos and spending a couple of hours talking to a Sifu in that system.....that you know more about it than someone that has actually studied the system and been granted instructor status.......is that not insulting?

Is this "condensed" version what is be taught here in the US? (i.e. that Boston group you mentioned once?).

 

[KPM]

^^^^^^ Yes! The "condensed" version is Ku Lo Wing Chun! The content is not significantly different than any other Wing Chun system descended from Leung Jan. It is the teaching method that is different.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The Gracies didn't spend a huge amount of time with Mitsuo Maeda either.

Carlos Gracie studied under Maeda at most 2-3 years. There's some reason to suspect that he may actually have studied under Donato Pires (a student of Maeda's) rather than under Maeda himself. (If this was the case, then the claimed direct association with Maeda would have been an effort to claim legitimacy and authority in the art.)

Starting from this fairly minimal introduction to jiu-jitsu/judo, BJJ was developed through a process of personal exploration, sparring, challenge matches, and exchange of information with practitioners of judo, wrestling, and lutre livre. Along the way it developed into a remarkably deep system with its own flavor which is still connected to its roots enough so that some call it Basically Just Judo.

I don't know anything about Ku Lo Wing Chun other than what KPM has posted, but I don't see any reason why the same sort of process couldn't have occurred there.

 

[Danny T]

Don't know much about wing chun other than what has been taught to me and I'm still learning.
I don't know anything much but I can and have taught several persons to fight in a physical self defense situation using some wing chun fundamentals in a very short period of time. Three 1 hour sessions a week for 12 weeks...36 hours of training using 'some' basic wc fundamental techniques. I have a curriculum and method to teach them but I cannot say I am teaching them wc. If these persons were to pass on what I taught them what would they be teaching New Iberia or danny t wing chun and would that be wing chun? In my opinion that would be a no. But then that would be my opinion; yours may well be different after all it is only an opinion. Who's would be correct?

 

[KPM]

Danny if YOU named it "Wing Chun" and granted them permission to pass it on to others, then would it not be a version of Wing Chun? That is what happened with Leung Jan in Ku Lo village. And it was more than just a few "self defense moves" as I pointed out. And it was taught pretty much on a daily basis for 3 years straight. Think about it....if you had several hours a day to spend with your teacher, 5 days a week for 3 years,....how much would YOU learn and how good would you be? Wouldn't that end up being much more that just a handful of self defense techniques?

 

[KPM]

Who here thinks that someone with a bit of talent could not obtain proficiency and a good foundation in their Wing Chun if they spent several hours a day training with a Master teacher, 5 days a week, for 3 years straight??? Heck....I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt! Who here thinks that someone with a bit of physical ability couldn't get pretty proficient in the same circumstance training for 2 years straight....5 or 6 days a week....for several hours a day....directly with a Wing Chun Master who had decades of experience???

 

[drop bear]

Carlos Gracie studied under Maeda at most 2-3 years. There's some reason to suspect that he may actually have studied under Donato Pires (a student of Maeda's) rather than under Maeda himself. (If this was the case, then the claimed direct association with Maeda would have been an effort to claim legitimacy and authority in the art.)

Starting from this fairly minimal introduction to jiu-jitsu/judo, BJJ was developed through a process of personal exploration, sparring, challenge matches, and exchange of information with practitioners of judo, wrestling, and lutre livre. Along the way it developed into a remarkably deep system with its own flavor which is still connected to its roots enough so that some call it Basically Just Judo.

I don't know anything about Ku Lo Wing Chun other than what KPM has posted, but I don't see any reason why the same sort of process couldn't have occurred there.

I think people teach after uchi deshi programs. Which is a similar concept.

Or it is like the south park satire on Joseph smith.

Depends on the practitioner.

 

[KPM]

This is Fung Leung, Fung Chun's oldest son, teaching and demo'ing....stringing together several of the more advanced 2 man sets. Who thinks this doesn't look like a Wing Chun system?

古劳咏春拳掌门冯良大师在扬州咏春拳馆示范十二式对拆—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看

 

[geezer]

So let me explain....once again...about Ku Lo Wing Chun to dispel this idea that it is "only a collection of self-defense moves" and not a "system."First, the villagers say that Leung Jan was there for 3 years before his death. So why do people here keep repeating this "only a couple of years" thing? 3 years is plenty of time to develop a firm foundation in Wing Chun. As Andrew pointed out, many of Ip Man's students were only with him for around the same amount of time.

Keith, I've already acknowledged this (bolded section above) in post #20. I never dismissed Ku lo village Wing Chun. I have no knowledge of it beyond youtube and the information you have posted. I do think it's important to be able to disagree politely and counter mis-information with better information as you have since done.

Look, two years ago this month I lost my mother, a brilliant and creative woman, to dementia. It wasn't easy. So when you threw out that comment at Joy, I reacted strongly. Joy does have his beliefs, and clearly it is important to him that his si-gung, Ho Kam Ming had a very long association with GM Yip, possibly the longest of any of Yip Man's students.

Other's may not think that the number of years spent with a sifu is the best way to measure skill ...any more than you can judge the value a painting by measuring its dimensions. As I stated before, my own sifu openly stated that his time as a personal student with GM Yip was brief, yet I believe his kung-fu was very good. Others have rudely disagreed. Whatever! The simple truth is that informative comments, like the one of yours that quoted above, do more to change a reasonable person's mind than angry responses.

Now there are also a few blatantly unreasonable folks on this forum. Neither information nor scathing invective seems to get through to them. That's when I take a deep breath and move on.

 

[geezer]

I think people teach after uchi deshi programs. Which is a similar concept.

Or it is like the South Park satire on Joseph Smith.

But not as funny!

 

[KPM]

Look, two years ago this month I lost my mother, a brilliant and creative woman, to dementia. It wasn't easy.

---Sorry to hear that! I know it isn't easy. Same with my mother 4 years ago.


Joy does have his beliefs, and clearly it is important to him that his si-gung, Ho Kam Ming had a very long association with GM Yip, possibly the longest of any of Yip Man's students.

---And can you imagine the reaction if every time Joy posted about Ho Kam Ming I popped up with a comment saying Ho Kam Ming really learned most of his Wing Chun from a student of Ip Man rather than Ip Man himself and really only studied with Ip Man for about 1 year? And that Ho Kam Ming's Wing Chun was "just" the "modified" version and not what Ip Man taught to his closest students? (none of that is true, of course, but neither is what he always pops up to say about Ku Lo Wing Chun)



Now there are also a few blatantly unreasonable folks on this forum. Neither information nor scathing invective seems to get through to them. That's when I take a deep breath and move on.

---This is true. But I never really considered Joy to be part of that group. Until now. Because I have given the same information that I posted on this thread multiple times now and it never seems to make a difference to him.