Protocol mishap or fashion faux pas?

[chrispillertkd]

I really want to give the benefit of the doubt here and really want to know if TKDin are exempt from this. I wonder what high-ranking Korean masters would think or have to say.

I think it would depend, really. In South Korea, Kuk Ki Won Taekwondo is largely viewed as a children's activity. Many young children get the kiddie equivalent of a black belt after one year of training. You can see them walking around in doboks going to and from classes. I imagine it's a lot like seeing kids in the States walk around in their little league uniforms.

In America, I know few if any instructors who wouldn't at least say to take off your belt and jacket and put on a different top if you have to go out after class before going home. Generally after a test, seminar, or class if we go out we go home, shower, and change first. If it's a quick lunch break and then back for training during an all day event people still change our tops at least (personally, I just change into street clothes).

Pax,

Chris

 

[IcemanSK]

To the OP, I tell my students they can only their dobok pants outside of class. Their tops & belts must not be worn outside class. Some come in street clothes & some wear their dobok pants to class. It's an issue of regard for the uniform, mitigates unwanted comments outside of class, & as a reminder that the purpose of the dobok is for training.

 

[mastercole]

He's not happy with me because I called him out on some questions of questionable motives because I care about the well-being of the board. If you think his post breaks the rules, please RTM, Legionary. Otherwise we debase ourselves.

First, you give your self to much credit, you never called me out on anything. Second, I have no idea what you are talking about.

I really want to give the benefit of the doubt here and really want to know if TKDin are exempt from this. I wonder what high-ranking Korean masters would think or have to say.

Obviously in the case (or many many cases you personally witnessed their instructor did not care, why should you?

 

[mastercole]

I do think that it is important not to get too 'precious' about the wearing of uniforms out in public. There are practical and social factors that come into play, most certainly, the most obvious, as has been mentioned by some earlier, being that to wear your kit out in a public place can invite unwanted attention.

At the end of the day, the garb we wear to practise our arts is simply the ordinary clothes of the culture and the period from which the art came. There is nothing mystical or ethical about wearing them.

All good points. The problem is that some people, not all, get an idea the uniform and belt is some kind of holy object. Of course the uniform should be treated well as you treat other clothes, keep it nice and clean, pressed and looking your best. But who cares if someone ends up out to lunch in a uniform, I certainly don't care. My myself, I always have a change of clothes, when I am done with the uniform, I change, I don't go out in it. But if I had to, no sweat, I'll just bring some business cards in case someone ask.

 

[Archtkd]

Folks, think. If doboks and belts where such a big deal in taekwondo nobody would compete in them.

 

[IcemanSK]

Another reason I don't think it's appropriate to wear a dobok outside the dojang is it just plain looks dorky & out of place. As do baseball players, wrestlers, equestrian riders, swimmers, or dancers just look out of place wearing their uniform outside the space where they participate in their activity.

Archtkd, your point is well taken by me.

 

[Cyriacus]

Much as I like small children I cannot eat a whole one, seeing a gang of arrogant little brats is annoying at any time dressed in anything even in pants ie underwear lol!

I assure You, Theyre delicious.

 

[granfire]

Another reason I don't think it's appropriate to wear a dobok outside the dojang is it just plain looks dorky & out of place. As do baseball players, wrestlers, equestrian riders, swimmers, or dancers just look out of place wearing their uniform outside the space where they participate in their activity.

Archtkd, your point is well taken by me.

yes, equestrians do get those looks all the time when appearing in public with the clothes of their trade. (especially the ladies...)

 

[shesulsa]

First, you give your self to much credit, you never called me out on anything. Second, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Of course you do.
I'm pretty sure you dinged me for it.

Obviously in the case (or many many cases you personally witnessed their instructor did not care, why should you?

I was taught to care about protocol for all the benefits it can offer in traditional training settings. I also care about my education - clearly you can understand that. In your words to me, do you have something productive to contribute here or are you just interested in being argumentative?

I have only sought to understand TKD more, to understand you more, your motives for posting some of the questions you have and the actual questions themselves ... but unfortunately, it is your attitude that you find reflected back here as demonstrated by your posts in this thread.

Please either answer the question or move on.

 

[mastercole]

Of course you do.

You just thought you were calling me out But in this thread, like your other, I can see you are certainly into what you think is "calling people out".

I was taught to care about protocol for all the benefits it can offer in traditional training settings. I also care about my education - clearly you can understand that. In your words to me, do you have something productive to contribute here or are you just interested in being argumentative?

I have only sought to understand TKD more, to understand you more, your motives for posting some of the questions you have and the actual questions themselves ... but unfortunately, it is your attitude that you find reflected back here as demonstrated by your posts in this thread.

Please either answer the question or move on.

The only protocol I see here is your own agenda. Here you love to argue, then at the same time state "answer the question or move on." So it is only you that can insult, call people out ect. but when you are called on it, suddenly that person is disruptive. Sorry, I don't buy it, and others with any intelligence won't buy it either, but keep going in the direction you are going. I don't see it as you seeking to understand Taekwondo, or you would be asking a lot of questions about other things, not insulting Taekwondo and getting argument is what this thread was really about anyway. It's called seeking Drama.

 

[Cyriacus]

Yay, these debates that never and in anyone thinking any differently are happening again.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Yay, these debates that never and in anyone thinking any differently are happening again.

Hey, that's the nature of internet bulletin boards. People debate, topics are dropped, more people join, they bring up old topics they weren't around for, they are debted again. No big deal. Problems only arise when people post in a belittling, insulting manner and then act surprised or like they're a martyr when other posters don't treat them like primadonnas.

Pax,

Chris

 

[andyjeffries]

For those who cite no locker room, or changing facility as an explanation for wearing their uniform while shopping or the like...

Is there some reason you can't wear a t-shirt or sweat shirt (appropriate to the weather), and then put the uniform top and belt on when you arrive? Then take it off again when you leave? Most women I know wear a t-shirt under the top anyway; so do many men. But even if you're not going to wear one underneath, it's easy to take it off and put the top on I'd think.

(By the way -- my club trains in a community center, and depending on the activities may only have a single restroom facility available. Most of us do something like I've described.)

Just to be clear a lot of my students (I only teach children) do bring a hoodie or something similar to put on over the top, however this is likely more due to the fact that it's still "fresh" outside (8-10°C).

In the UK, it's much less common for children to wear T-shirts underneath their training tops and you have to be very careful about what you say regarding children getting changed in a "public" area.

I had thought about getting some club T-Shirts made, but the area I teach is not affluent so I don't want to add expense to parents at the moment, when I'm trying to focus on getting most of the children to wear hogu/head guards for sparring work.

I just personally feel this is a personal/parental thing - if people want to wear their dobok to/from training that's their call. If parents want to make children get changed (either to avoid the risk of dirt or so it's not seen), that's their call.

I'm with Mastercole, treat it with respect as you would any other clothes, but aside from that it holds no special or mystical properties for me. I'm proud of the time I spend doing and teaching Taekwondo, and I'm proud of the rank I was given by my grandmaster, but the clothes are just clothes - I would be no different a Taekwondoin in a tracksuit than I am in a dobok.

 

[andyjeffries]

Another reason I don't think it's appropriate to wear a dobok outside the dojang is it just plain looks dorky & out of place. As do baseball players, wrestlers, equestrian riders, swimmers, or dancers just look out of place wearing their uniform outside the space where they participate in their activity.

I routinely see people in the UK in supermarkets wearing football kits (soccer for you USers) or rugby kits without a second thought (this is a frequent occurance on Saturday mornings while they're on their way to their matches). I see girls going to dancing lessons wearing their dance outfits. In the summer when it's warm enough I see guys walking around wearing swimming shorts on their way to a pool.

I don't spare a second thought about any of them for wearing their activity's clothes outside the activity. Good on them for doing an activity rather than sitting on the couch watching one.

 

[Gnarlie]

Just to be clear a lot of my students (I only teach children) do bring a hoodie or something similar to put on over the top, however this is likely more due to the fact that it's still "fresh" outside (8-10°C).

In the UK, it's much less common for children to wear T-shirts underneath their training tops and you have to be very careful about what you say regarding children getting changed in a "public" area.

I had thought about getting some club T-Shirts made, but the area I teach is not affluent so I don't want to add expense to parents at the moment, when I'm trying to focus on getting most of the children to wear hogu/head guards for sparring work.

I just personally feel this is a personal/parental thing - if people want to wear their dobok to/from training that's their call. If parents want to make children get changed (either to avoid the risk of dirt or so it's not seen), that's their call.

I'm with Mastercole, treat it with respect as you would any other clothes, but aside from that it holds no special or mystical properties for me. I'm proud of the time I spend doing and teaching Taekwondo, and I'm proud of the rank I was given by my grandmaster, but the clothes are just clothes - I would be no different a Taekwondoin in a tracksuit than I am in a dobok.

With you on all points. The UK is a bit of a nightmare regarding application of a Child Protection Policy as it would apply to kids getting changed, even in a dedicated changing room or a toilet area. It's far more relaxed here in Germany, which to me is sensible and practical so long as measures are in place to ensure that children are not left alone with an adult and vice versa.

For that reason, kids always left our UK club in dobok, but were encouraged to put something over the top, like tracksuit bottoms and a jacket, so the dobok wouldn't be on display and they wouldn't be cold. It also allows the parents to nip to Asda on the way home without people casting aspersions about them, their kids, or the club they are from.

It's common sense really - it's not that bad to be in the supermarket in a dobok, but we had instances in summer where a child had been encouraged by the parents to walk home alone, without a change of clothing - to me that's asking for trouble. If the worst thing that kid catches is a chill, then they are lucky. This obviously led to a few 'stranger danger' sessions, and the introduction of the 'don't leave the Dojang until your grown-up is here' rule.

 

[Dirty Dog]

There are a few of our kids who wear their dobaks to and from the dojang. Nobody seems to get uptight about it. When I'm pressed for time, I will sometimes wear my black dobak pants with a t-shirt. I don't really think anybody would notice that they're not just black jeans under ordinary circumstances.

 

[Cyriacus]

Hey, that's the nature of internet bulletin boards. People debate, topics are dropped, more people join, they bring up old topics they weren't around for, they are debted again. No big deal. Problems only arise when people post in a belittling, insulting manner and then act surprised or like they're a martyr when other posters don't treat them like primadonnas.

Pax,

Chris

Its more that its the same thing, every single time.
I dont mind a healthy debate

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Hey, that's the nature of internet bulletin boards. People debate, topics are dropped, more people join, they bring up old topics they weren't around for, they are debted again. No big deal. Problems only arise when people post in a belittling, insulting manner and then act surprised or like they're a martyr when other posters don't treat them like primadonnas.

Pax,

Chris

I think we need to consider the 'why'. In some cases, an instructor works predominately with children. Children look up to authority figures, which is proper respect. Even with adults, an instructor is looked upon with respect, again this is proper. In the school environment, their 'word' is truth and/or law. But care needs to be taken that it doesn't go to the head (not said about anyone in particular, a general statement). Many personalities exist in the world, boards are no different. Sometimes an instructor comes in here, expecting that their 'word is truth/law' and then they find out others have a different view or more experience than they do in some areas. A choice then needs to be made, learn from others, accepting that there are different view points and opinions or get offended and post in a rude manner. I'm sure we can all agree on which is the more mature route, as well as the wiser path to take.

If quite a few people are complaining about certain members in particular, then maybe there is some substance to the complaint(s). If those that are the root of the complaint(s) would reverse course and share what they have to offer, while respecting that others may differ and perhaps realize that they in turn can learn themselves then everything would be groovy. It is when some think they are beyond learning from others that problems will occur. A 50th Dan can learn from a white belt (or no belt). It is humility to accept that and arrogance to ignore it.

Peace.

 

[shesulsa]

I just want to reiterate I encourage all my students to arrive in their dobak trousers and a training tee shirt (I went to the craft store and bought a bunch and threw my logo onto them - about $4 out of my pocket each) and just gave them away to the students, but I have a small group.

It kind of irks me when folks jump to the "my belt/uniform has no special/magical properties" line, it's rather ridiculous and, I guess, answers my question as to what is generally considered proper in training today.

I don't think my belt nor my uniform nor my wedding ring have special properties or magical powers. Sharpening one's behaviors in all things related to training, training clothing and inventory, etcetera, has long been part and parcel of training the mind, training the heart, training the character. I suppose this escapes most people's notice. That's not to say that practiced habit is the only way to get there, it is a demonstrated habit that is easy for others to see, particularly the instructor.

I really also don't like to see football players eating in a restaurant after a game - there are ALL kinds of nastiness in the surface on which they play and they bring that into a food service place. Same for baseball players. I don't like seeing women in bikini tops nor children in bathing suits with nothing over them in said places either. That's what cover-ups are for.

I'm no prude, but I think in a world where we complain about inappropriate behavior being rampant, we need to think about how we encourage that through habit in the home, in the workplace, on the field and in the dojang.

Thanks to you folks who took the time to respond to my posts about the protocol!

 

[shesulsa]

The only protocol I see here is your own agenda. Here you love to argue, then at the same time state "answer the question or move on." So it is only you that can insult, call people out ect. but when you are called on it, suddenly that person is disruptive. Sorry, I don't buy it, and others with any intelligence won't buy it either, but keep going in the direction you are going. I don't see it as you seeking to understand Taekwondo, or you would be asking a lot of questions about other things, not insulting Taekwondo and getting argument is what this thread was really about anyway. It's called seeking Drama.

Mastercole, the thread where you felt I was being argumentative, I simply asked you questions for clarity which you repeatedly refused to answer other than to try to brush me aside and accuse me of arguing. I have never attacked Taekwondo and I certainly do not seek drama. I have been here far longer than you, sir, and have seen people like you come and go. Perhaps you expected me to bow down to you and glorify every question you posed and never ask for clarification; maybe that's how you're used to being treated and expect that to happen here. Perhaps you're just the kind of person who will only accept the answers you want to hear. I don't know.

I encourage you as another human being on this planet to view all questions as carrying the potential for shared understanding (I'm certain I have asserted this more than once) regardless of your perception. You can only hope to forward your art by doing so. If that makes you feel uncomfortable ... perhaps you should take that into consideration when posting here.

Peace.