Promotion stanrdards (Split from Is it disrespectful to ask [...])

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Maybe not 20 years but I'd say at least 8 years. It took me 10 but if you get it after say 2 years. You won't have much more experience than a beginner. I think 5 years is way to short frankly. You need experience as a black belt which you definently don't have after 5 years

I'm fairly certain Steve was being (facetious?), throwing out a stupid long amount of time to show a black belt doesn't mean anything specific.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Again, it depends what your expectation of a black belt student is. I tend to think 5 years is a minimum, for someone who works hard and consistently (say, 3 classes a week, plus seminars, plus training on their own, maybe some previous experience to aid understanding). 7 years (pretty close to your 8) is more reasonable for most folks (I think the "normal" in NGA is about 7.5 years - I took 13).

You've mentioned this before, but I can't remember if you ever explained it. Was there a reason it took you almost double the time to get black belt?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You've mentioned this before, but I can't remember if you ever explained it. Was there a reason it took you almost double the time to get black belt?

A few reasons. One, I was never driven by rank. I liked being the best at whatever rank I was, so I tended to camp out a while. I also traveled a lot (more than I do now), so it wasn't unusual for me to miss a month of training, then go to twice as much the next month to catch up. That inconsistency doesn't lead to great proficiency at the more technical aspects. And, I just like moving slow - I like investigating and exploring the techniques at each rank (in NGAA, 10 core techniques for each of the 5 student ranks).

I'm also not the fastest learner. I've always had some athleticism, but not a lot. Playing pick-up sports, I was rarely chosen last, but never first. What athleticism I have was hard-won by being active throughout my childhood and 20's.

 

[Tez3]

Wow, can't believe this is still going on. Thought it would be done and dusted by the time I got back!

 

[JR 137]

I am sure you know what you're saying. I was just hopping it was not true (2 years or less for a black belt). Do you think 2 years, a few hours a week, may be enough?

Depends on who you ask.

There's a classic McDojo about 2 blocks from my work. I've had a lot of my (academic) students go there. They've got an after school program with a van that picks the kids up.

I stopped in there one day to see what's going on. The only payment option is a "black belt plan" where you pay a price (around $4k, and you can make payments) and you train for as long as it takes to get to black belt. All testing fees included. So if it takes 10 years or 10 days to get black belt, the price is the same.

They told me the average time it takes to "earn" a black belt is 5 years. Some people who work hard and are a bit more physically talented have done it in less, but 5 years is the norm. Nothing too McDojo about that. And $4k for 5 years (60 months) of training works out to $66.67 per month. Pretty cheap.

Funny thing is, I have yet to meet anyone who took 5 years. Most take 2 years. One kid took 2 and a half. I seriously wonder where they came up with the 5 year average. I'm willing to bet they say that to A) make you think it's pretty cheap when you break down the cost; and B) make you/your kid think you're sooo much better than average and you can brag about how little Johnny was so good he did it in half the time it takes everyone else.

I've honestly never heard of anyone taking close to 5 years there. A few parents I'm familiar with complained about getting conned by that during the contract agreement, yet love the place. I guess expensive automatically means high quality instruction. And that's the very tip of the McDojo iceberg for that place.

 

[Steve]

Ehmm.. A TKD instructor in ITF requires 5 Dan. He will be 150 years old by that time if he starts training as an adult.

Nah. Once youve got your 1st dan, I think it should only take 1 year to go up from there. Except 7th Dan. That one should take 18 months.

 

[Steve]

Maybe not 20 years but I'd say at least 8 years. It took me 10 but if you get it after say 2 years. You won't have much more experience than a beginner. I think 5 years is way to short frankly. You need experience as a black belt which you definently don't have after 5 years

If you want tonjust give away black belts. Sure.

 

[Steve]

I'm fairly certain Steve was being (facetious?), throwing out a stupid long amount of time to show a black belt doesn't mean anything specific.

That might be true. There are perfectly valid reasons to not have belts, to have belts and to award rank any way you can think of. As long as the standards are internally consistent and make transparent, who cares?

 

[Flying Crane]

Wow, can't believe this is still going on. Thought it would be done and dusted by the time I got back!

And people still wonder why I feel belts are a silly distraction...

 

[Tez3]

And people still wonder why I feel belts are a silly distraction...

I think there's more going on than just belts to be honest. There's feelings of insecurity, jealousy and just plain naiveté going on with the OP.
Belts have their uses ( they are very good for pulling dislocated shoulders back into place). For beginners who have no previous knowledge of martial arts they serve as a visible reminder that they are improving, not everyone has the confidence in themselves to be able to tell. Self esteem isn't always high enough in some people either and a belt they know they worked for and have earnt is special to them.
I know you don't like them but please, don't demean those to whom it is a visible sign they are improving, that they have worked hard, not everyone has your confidence and sense of self worth. They may well be a 'distraction' but not a silly one, they may be a distraction for those who think they aren't good enough, sometimes telling them they are isn't enough, the belts may well distract them from feeling they aren't worthy of training. I have come across a lot like that, and in people who are otherwise quite confident appearing.
I know a lot of martial arts instructors feel it is only their job to train people in martial arts, not to deal with the person as a person but I'm the sort of instructor who likes to help everyone as much as I can so I guess I like to boost students as much as possible, not by flattery though. When a student has had a hard time with techniques or just can't make it work and then has a break though and grades the sheer joy when they receive their belt is really a great thing to see. It's a badge of honour for them and to say it's silly would be churlish I think. It takes a long time for most people to see that the belt is only a symbol of what they can do, when they gain inner confidence and trust in their abilities they realise they don't need a belt but until ( of if) they reach that point belts are worth having.
Think of belts as training wheels on your bicycle, some people need them, others can ride a bike straight away without needing them but in any case they are a useful tool.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think there's more going on than just belts to be honest. There's feelings of insecurity, jealousy and just plain naiveté going on with the OP.
Belts have their uses ( they are very good for pulling dislocated shoulders back into place). For beginners who have no previous knowledge of martial arts they serve as a visible reminder that they are improving, not everyone has the confidence in themselves to be able to tell. Self esteem isn't always high enough in some people either and a belt they know they worked for and have earnt is special to them.
I know you don't like them but please, don't demean those to whom it is a visible sign they are improving, that they have worked hard, not everyone has your confidence and sense of self worth. They may well be a 'distraction' but not a silly one, they may be a distraction for those who think they aren't good enough, sometimes telling them they are isn't enough, the belts may well distract them from feeling they aren't worthy of training. I have come across a lot like that, and in people who are otherwise quite confident appearing.
I know a lot of martial arts instructors feel it is only their job to train people in martial arts, not to deal with the person as a person but I'm the sort of instructor who likes to help everyone as much as I can so I guess I like to boost students as much as possible, not by flattery though. When a student has had a hard time with techniques or just can't make it work and then has a break though and grades the sheer joy when they receive their belt is really a great thing to see. It's a badge of honour for them and to say it's silly would be churlish I think. It takes a long time for most people to see that the belt is only a symbol of what they can do, when they gain inner confidence and trust in their abilities they realise they don't need a belt but until ( of if) they reach that point belts are worth having.
Think of belts as training wheels on your bicycle, some people need them, others can ride a bike straight away without needing them but in any case they are a useful tool.

Oh, l do know that for some people they can serve a positive purpose.

But for others, they become a silly distraction.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And people still wonder why I feel belts are a silly distraction...

Except this kind of discussion has never happened inside a school I've been in (and nearly all have used belts). The distraction happens places like this, not where the belts are actually being used. By that measure, hurricanes are a silly distraction, too.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh, l do know that for some people they can serve a positive purpose.

But for others, they become a silly distraction.

And for some, they simply exist.

 

[Tez3]

The OP's issues are about more than belts.

 

[Steve]

Except this kind of discussion has never happened inside a school I've been in (and nearly all have used belts). The distraction happens places like this, not where the belts are actually being used. By that measure, hurricanes are a silly distraction, too.

He may be presuming that his own shortcomings are universal. It happens.

Psychological projection - Wikipedia

 

[Dirty Dog]

He may be presuming that his own shortcomings are universal. It happens.

Psychological projection - Wikipedia

This strikes me as being highly likely.

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

Axiom: "Believe it or not, most students struggle with executing proper sidekicks."

Headhunter: "What a load of rubbish side kicks are some of the easiest kicks you can throw also what does flexibility have to do with anything you can throw side kicks as low as the knee."

Gwai Lo Dan: "Well, a respected grandmaster mentions that some people feel you can judge a person's TKD by his/her sidekick (beginning of attached video). And I can do amazing basketball dunks on a 5 foot high net. But that does not make me amazing at dunking."

Personally, I think side-kicks are challenging. As shown in that video:

• We're taught that the base foot should pivot 180 or nearly so, so that it's facing away from the target.
• As shown in the video, we're taught that the kicking knee should be chambered to the chest with the shin parallel to the ground.
• And of course the kicking foot is pulled back into a foot-blade, which serves as the striking surface.
• Then at full extension, there's only a slight hip turn-over -- WITH THE HIPS IN -- so that you can feel the entire muscle chain along the side, the glutes, and the legs all engaging.
• (As Axiom and that video point-out, a lot of beginners perform the kick with the hip pulled back, so that the kick isn't kicking fully to the side -- so you don't get that nice long muscle chain engaging.)
• At our school, for testing purposes, all kicks need to be above the belt at least, and that includes the side kick of course.
• We keep both fists chambered in front of the torso.
• And then of course after the kick, the kicking knee needs to retract most of the way back to the chest before finally stepping down.
• All of that happens on one leg of course, without losing balance.

Personally there's no one item on that list that I find difficult -- but simultaneously doing EVERYTHING on that list is, in my opinion.

I would agree with Headhunter though that if you're only kicking as high as the knee, a side kick is much easier.

Do you want to know the funny thing about all this? My stepfather has been doing Shotokan since the 1960s. He's met three "Japanese grandmasters" in his time, and each have contradictory advice about how to kick.

It seems that nobody knows the "correct" technique, which is one of the main reasons I've quit TMA and focused on more scientific approaches to fighting.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

He's met three "Japanese grandmasters" in his time, and each have contradictory advice about how to kick.

It seems that nobody knows the "correct" technique.

I was instructing some lower belts on the turning kick, and I asked them to try dropping their arm on the kicking side.

Someone said the obvious, "well what do I say to the instructor who says to keep your hands up"?

My answer was "Say you are making a conscious decision in a particular scenario to get more power at the cost of being more exposed."

But I do like the Simpsons. "No matter how you do it, you are doing it wrong."

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Edit: Double post

 

[JR 137]

Do you want to know the funny thing about all this? My stepfather has been doing Shotokan since the 1960s. He's met three "Japanese grandmasters" in his time, and each have contradictory advice about how to kick.

It seems that nobody knows the "correct" technique, which is one of the main reasons I've quit TMA and focused on more scientific approaches to fighting.

What if all 3 "Japanese grandmasters" were correct? Wouldn't that mean there's more than 1 way of kicking correctly?

If this issue in TMA bothers you so much, look at MMA. How many different ways of doing the "same" kick have been successful?

I train TMA (Seido Juku karate). Watch our class and you'll see almost as many variations on a roundhouse kick as you'll see students. My teacher will correct technique according to the individual, while keeping "the right way(s)" in mind. I don't pivot, turn, and lean as much as "the right way." If/when I do, I overdo it. My teacher had me change my mechanics to make the kick more effective for me, while keeping the essentials of the kick intact. The head of our organization (my teacher's teacher) has seen me throw that kick many times. Never once has he told me it was incorrect. He has made some further suggestions to improve it, while keeping the essentials of it intact also. The same can be said for just about any technique.