Problems with roundhouse kick

[Kung Fu Wang]

You must be referring to point style fighting because all forms of roundhouse kicks (mawashi geri) were used in tournament fighting dating back to the 1st Kyokushin World Tournament.

The 1st Kyokushin World Tournament was held in 1974. I believed that was when the full contact Karate tournament started.

I didn't fight the full contact Karate tournament myself. But I was the training partner for some full contact Karate fighters (Joe Averado and his black belts). I still remember one of Joe's black belt broke his hand by using "ridge hand" in full contact. I gave him some of my iron palm training medicine for that. Those were some good old days.

 

[Yokozuna514]

The 1st Kyokushin World Tournament was held in 1974. I believed that was when the full contact Karate tournament started.

Yes the first world tournament was in 1974. However, i have never heard of half points being scored in Kyokushin using the ball of the foot only. There were very little rules back then so it is difficult to imagine that the contact surface to inflict the damage was of any consequence prior to 1973 either.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yes the first world tournament was in 1974. However, i have never heard of half points being scored in Kyokushin using the ball of the foot only. There were very little rules back then so it is difficult to imagine that the contact surface to inflict the damage was of any consequence prior to 1973 either.

I may only talk about Karate in Texas. Back then I was still a UT Austin student and I didn't travel much. All the Karate tournaments that I had competed was in Texas.

 

[TSDTexan]

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Thanks for posting that. Some of his comments reinforce my suspicion that at least some of the kicks in NGA are from Goju (though the most commonly stated source for NGA strikes is Shotokan). Now I need to continue my (half-assed) search to see if similar mechanics are taught in Shotokan.

 

[TSDTexan]

Thanks for posting that. Some of his comments reinforce my suspicion that at least some of the kicks in NGA are from Goju (though the most commonly stated source for NGA strikes is Shotokan). Now I need to continue my (half-assed) search to see if similar mechanics are taught in Shotokan.

dont worry... i will scare something up for ya.
you were who i posted the link for anyway

 

[Gerry Seymour]

dont worry... i will scare something up for ya.
you were who i posted the link for anyway

That's much appreciated. Some background to my musings on this...

The oral history of NGA says the strikes came from Shotokan, which was apparently one of the arts studied by the founder (probably in the 1920's). But the art was brought to the US by a US GI (as so many were) after WWII. That GI already held rank in Goju-ryu, and everyone still living who learned the art learned it from him or one of his students. I'd have been surprised if he didn't incorporate some of the Goju principles, and I saw some distinct differences from what I saw of Shotokan (and from students and partners with Shotokan experience).

 

[lklawson]

My preference:

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My preference:

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

When he executes roundhouse kick, his body stop rotation toward the end, most of the kicking power just come from his leg and not from his body. The kick then become 2 moves.

- Rotate body partially, and stop rotation.
- Kick the leg out.

IMO, since he has intention to stop his body rotation, that will prevent him from generating the maximum amount of kicking power. In other words, his leg is not acting as a whip, or swinging stick.

People like to use this kind of roundhouse kick in the point system fight. a "low, high roundhouse kicks" without body rotation. The foot is not even dropped back down to the ground. It can be very fast. But since the body is not fully rotated, it won't have the maximum amount of kicking power.

 

[lklawson]

When he executes roundhouse kick, his body stop rotating toward the end, most of the kicking power just come from his leg and not from his body. The kick then become 2 moves.

- Rotate body partially, and stop rotation.
- Kick the leg out.

IMO, since he has intention to stop his body rotation, that will prevent him from generating the maximum amount of kicking power. In other words, his leg is not acting as a whip, or swinging stick.

People like to use this kind of roundhouse kick in the point system fight. a "low, high roundhouse kicks" without body rotation. The foot is not even dropped back down to the ground. It can be very fast. But since the body is not fully rotated, it won't have the maximum amount of kicking power.

Don't read too much into it. It's a slow speed, basic level, introduction to the Fouette.

One of the key points is that the fouette is intended as a toe-kick round-house. According to Savate history, it was developed for use wearing shoes. It's a fast "whip" kick that hits with the toe of hard-soled shoes ...which is why it's my favorite.

Here's another vid, with a slightly different execution:

Another one with a bit more energetic.

And a 3rd.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

IMO, because the body rotation is involved, the back leg roundhouse kick is always be more powerful than the leading leg roundhouse kick.

For the same reason, in wrestling, you use

- back leg to sweep.
- leading leg to scoop.

 

[wab25]

IMO, since he has intention to stop his body rotation, that will prevent him from generating the maximum amount of kicking power.

Maximum power is only one part of a technique that should be considered. The Jab generates the least amount of power, of any of the punches. Yet, the Jab is the most important punch. (some might argue that it is the most important strike) By your logic here, one should not learn the Jab, as there exists another punch that has more power. (in fact, most other punches have more power)

The kicks are different. There are many differences, besides just the maximum amount of power. Learn both. Learn when and where to use both. Both have been used very successfully in the ring and on the streets. (I am not sure how effectively the MT version has been used in a point fighting situation... probably not well )

 

[TSDTexan]

Maximum power is only one part of a technique that should be considered. The Jab generates the least amount of power, of any of the punches. Yet, the Jab is the most important punch. (some might argue that it is the most important strike) By your logic here, one should not learn the Jab, as there exists another punch that has more power. (in fact, most other punches have more power)

The kicks are different. There are many differences, besides just the maximum amount of power. Learn both. Learn when and where to use both. Both have been used very successfully in the ring and on the streets. (I am not sure how effectively the MT version has been used in a point fighting situation... probably not well )

full body rotation and proper technique allowed me to break a two by four. if i used that exact amount of power on a human... stiking the neck... it would kill someone. Rare indeed is the need to use such a level of power.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Maximum power is only one part of a technique that should be considered. The Jab generates the least amount of power, of any of the punches. Yet, the Jab is the most important punch. (some might argue that it is the most important strike) By your logic here, one should not learn the Jab, as there exists another punch that has more power. (in fact, most other punches have more power)

The kicks are different. There are many differences, besides just the maximum amount of power. Learn both. Learn when and where to use both. Both have been used very successfully in the ring and on the streets. (I am not sure how effectively the MT version has been used in a point fighting situation... probably not well )

Jab can be used as the knock down punch if you put your body behind it. If you only move your arm without moving your body, it may not have enough knock down power. This is why I strongly disagree with the WC form training method that only move the arm without moving the body.

Of course you can use roundhouse kick to set up something else. When you do that, you don't have to consider the maximum power generation.

I agree that MT roundhouse kick may not work well in point fighting situation.

Since a foot sweep need to sweep down your opponent, it's like to knock your opponent down. You will find out it's much easier to sweep your opponent down by using your back leg than by using your front leg because the body rotation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

full body rotation and proper technique allowed me to break a two by four. if i used that exact amount of power on a human... stiking the neck... it would kill someone. Rare indeed is the need to use such a level of power.

When you have to deal with multiple opponents in street fight, if you can't knock one of your opponents down by one strike, you may not have the 2nd chance. To develop some knock down power is important. You don't have to use it unless your life is in danger.

IMO, for MA training, there is nothing more important than to be able to finish a fight ASAP.

 

[TSDTexan]

When you have to deal with multiple opponents in street fight, if you can't knock one of your opponents down by one strike, you may not have the 2nd chance. To develop some knock down power is important. You don't have to use it unless your life is in danger.

IMO, for MA training, there is nothing more important than to be able to finish a fight ASAP.

A powerful kick to disable a knee doesn't require full body rotation.

When my master and I were assaulted by a gang of teenage punks. I was a teenage boy back then. Senior in high school.

He never threw a kick. Good clean hand technique was enough. Both offensively and defensively. That and laughter.

 

[lklawson]

Jab can be used as the knock down punch if you put your body behind it. If you only move your arm without moving your body, it may not have enough knock down power. This is why I strongly disagree with the WC form training method that only move the arm without moving the body.

Of course you can use roundhouse kick to set up something else. When you do that, you don't have to consider the maximum power generation.

I agree that MT roundhouse kick may not work well in point fighting situation.

Since a foot sweep need to sweep down your opponent, it's like to knock your opponent down. You will find out it's much easier to sweep your opponent down by using your back leg than by using your front leg because the body rotation.

Savate isn't point fighting karate.

 

[wab25]

Jab can be used as the knock down punch if you put your body behind it.

Using your body correctly, with any other punch, will generate more knock down power. But, knock down power is not the point of a jab.

Since a foot sweep need to sweep down your opponent, it's like to knock your opponent down. You will find out it's much easier to sweep your opponent down by using your back leg than by using your front leg because the body rotation.

When I do a sweep, I use timing. Using timing is much more powerful, than using raw power. Using proper timing, sweeps take very little power. I sweep with both front and back leg. It depends on the situation.

You are still focused though, on one single aspect. The maximum amount of power. There are more aspects to consider. I can shoot my opponent between the eyes with a gun to stop him. I can use:
- 38
- 38 Special
- 9mm
- 357 Magnum
- 45 ACP
- 44 Magnum
- 500 Magnum
- 308 lapua
- 50 cal BMG
- 20 mm cannon round

The list goes on, each getting more powerful... but at some point on that list you have sufficient power in the round to stop the guy with a head shot. Yes, you can deliver more and more power. But at a certain point, you need to consider other things. How many rounds do you have? How fast to reload? How hard is the recoil? How fast can I put the gun back on target after shooting? Most importantly, what situation am I in? If I am in close quarters, inside, I might not want to have the 50 cal BMG, even though it will do a lot of damage.I would probably want something between the 38 and the 45, even though they are less powerful. The 20 mm is right out, even though it is the most powerful one listed, mainly because I can't lift it. But, put the guy out a few hundred yards, and I will take the 308. Put him out a 1000 or more yards, give me the 50 BMG. Let me be in a vehicle, and the 20 mm cannon looks better.

Look, the MT kick is a great kick. Its very powerful and versatile. I think people should learn it and use it. However, the Karate / TKD style kick is a great kick as well. It needs to be used differently. But, it has plenty of power and is also very versatile. The best kick to use depends on the situation. Part of the game, is to make sure you are in a situation where you can pick your best weapon. Whats interesting is that guys who train to use the 308, the 50 BMG and the 20 mm cannon, also carry a 9mm. And they know when to use each. Which is better? The M-16 or the 308? What is the situation? What is the range? Both are extremely effective when used in the right situation. Even though the 308 hits much harder than the M-16, the M-16 is still an extremely effective rifle to use in battle. (even the M-16 guys carry a 9mm as well)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

knock down power is not the point of a jab.

We may have different definition of jab and cross. To me

- jab is leading hand punch.
- cross is back hand punch.

Here is to use cross to set up jab.

 

[lklawson]

We may have different definition of jab and cross. To me

- jab is leading hand punch.
- cross is back hand punch.

The Cross Counter

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk