Problems of new students

[donald1]

Good luck with the new competitive instructor

 

[donnaTKD]

thankyou me and scotty started off muay thai in the mid nineties together and then he got married and had sproggs moved house nd then i lost touch totally until we found each other on FB

i know that he got totally outclassed in his last - i heard the stories and saw the tape (eventually) and it's no wonder he doesn't get in the ring too often tbh so for me to have him as a coach is a blessing really just looking forward to it now

am fighting again next week so we'll see what if anything that he does with me makes any difference to how i react to things

 

[Mark Lynn]

thankyou me and scotty started off muay thai in the mid nineties together and then he got married and had sproggs moved house nd then i lost touch totally until we found each other on FB

i know that he got totally outclassed in his last - i heard the stories and saw the tape (eventually) and it's no wonder he doesn't get in the ring too often tbh so for me to have him as a coach is a blessing really just looking forward to it now

am fighting again next week so we'll see what if anything that he does with me makes any difference to how i react to things

Good luck with your fight.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Well it happened again on Monday. Guy rings up and we chat for a bit. He says he will be at training Tuesday night. Great!

I took the advice to ring just before the class. Phone went to message bank, so just left a short message reminding him where our school is located and says that I was looking forward to meeting him ... and ... no show! Aarh! :flammad:

K-man

I still think you did the right thing business wise to ring the guy even if he didn't show up. I know it is frustrating non the less.

 

[donnaTKD]

thankyou mark

i won my last fight (yesterday) and have now decided to hang up my fighting gloves i got totally trashed even though i won

love the things that scotty did with me though - sort of got me to change my mindset and believe in myself a bit more - i was lucky to have him there big thankyou to scotty for his help

 

[Tames D]

thankyou mark

i won my last fight (yesterday) and have now decided to hang up my fighting gloves i got totally trashed even though i won

love the things that scotty did with me though - sort of got me to change my mindset and believe in myself a bit more - i was lucky to have him there big thankyou to scotty for his help

I thought you had a severely broken leg?

 

[yaxomoxay]

Very interesting topic. As a student (a sucky one) who practices TSD (and sucks at it), and have been practicing for six years or so, I believe that there are many factors that influence a student to remain or leave.
As I said, I had been at my dojan for six years, either practicing or watching my sons. In these years I have seen many students join and leave, and I have seen many parents getting all excited about their Karate Kid for a month and then leave forever. I am unable to give a scientific number, but I guess than more than 50% of the students leave before reaching an intermediate “color” belt, such as Red Belt. Most leave after the first test, when they reach yellow belt and realize that the previous months were just the tip of the tip of the iceberg.

For what it’s worth, this is what I can see as problems:

• The “Karate Kid syndrome”, as I call it. Most young students, between 8 and 14 believe that with three months of training, every day, they can become the next Jet Li. I am not sure if movies like Karate Kid – which I love in its cheesiness- are the actual cause, but when they talk to you about how much they like their new training, you see in their eyes the hope of being like Daniel; put some wax on and wax off for a week and suddenly they get all the moves and reflexes necessary to beat anyone at sparring. Then, reality hits. They spar with someone a little bit knowledgeable, with better reflexes and they feel humiliated, and stop listening to the Master that tries to push them and make them understand that the good news is that there is room for improvement.
• Parents are totally oblivious to what a MA is. I was one of them. When my wife suggested that my superhyperactive-unfocused kid should join a TMA, I was against it. I saw the first classes and I did not understand a thing. What is that thing they call “form”, are they dancing? Why is my son taking more than two hours to learn a move that looks so simple as a front kick?
• New adults students are totally oblivious to what a MA is. I was one of them. When my wife said “hey, since we are here every day, we can learn this too instead of wasting time just looking without understanding.” First class was a private lesson, I remember it as cool. I did a “front kick” (below my belt, loosing balance and with my hands flapping like a bird) and was excited when I felt the sound of the foot hitting the pad. Then, blackness. It took me forever to learn my first form, I ended up being frustrated. Very frustrated. I joined the group class and couldn’t keep up with anyone. Awful feeling. My first test, even worse. I messed up the form, I couldn’t kick without losing my balance, I forgot terminology and so on. You know the drill. Here, I “fault” both myself and my teacher. I expected something epic as in movies, and he did not clarify how awful it is to do MA. In all truth, I remembered him mentioning that one of the keys was patience, but that’s slightly different. Instructors should tell upfront to teenagers and adults how terrible it is to get out of the comfort zone and do something based on a different philosophy, with different methods and highly misrepresented. Teachers, please make it clear: doing MA requires a lot of mental endurance because it’s… horrible! (fyi I am still far away from where I would like to be).
• Physical shape, especially of teens/pre-teens. We can’t expect someone 30+ with a sedentary history to suddenly become a la Van Damme, and do splits between trucks/jets/spaceships. Teachers should clarify that to those people. As for teens/pre-teens, they are out of shape, especially here in Texas. And when they see that themselves, they leave. I had the honor to help my master a few times during classes he could not attend due to illness/travels etc especially if none of the black belts are available. It didn’t happen often, but since everyone at my dojan knows me, I guess he trusts me enough to teach basic classes (I know someone will disagree with that, but that’s not the point). As soon as kids see me their eyes widens, their expression the mask of unutterable terror, their voice shakes. That’s because when I “lead” I make it a good workout. And by “good workout”, I am not going easy in any way. Kids need to be pushed above their limits. Most of them, are unable. After a few jumping jacks they are out of breath. Some of them are tired from not having slept because of videogames (two admitted it to me), some are tired from bad eating habits. Most of them leave when they can’t keep up physically with the rest of the class. They believe that going three days a week to do some MA is enough. I would like to have the “belt” requirements based also on BMI, Weight.
• Parents. That’s the most disturbing issue. I have seen a lot of ignorant parents, making idiotic comments and doing dangerous stuff. I actually saw a mother forcing (FORCING) her morbid obese 12yo boy to eat McDonald’s. With large fries, and regular coke. The boy cried, he wanted something healthier, she told him to eat what she already bought (and delivered right outside the class. Basically he burned 400 calories, and she fed him 2000). Needless to say, he disappeared, which is very sad since he was very committed. I heard another parent telling the other parents that his kid was too stupid and fat for MA. I heard another parent complaining that at yellow belt his son was still doing basic kicking and punching since he “already know how to do them, otherwise what was the use of the previous months?”
• Overscheduling of kids. This is sad because I saw a few kids with a lot of potential leaving MA for football. I remember one, he reached blue belt (two steps before BB). His body is made for sports. At the time he was doing: swimming, football, baseball, soccer, MA and piano lessons. He gave up MA and now is doing only football, his dad is sure that the kid will play for the Cowboys.

Now I would like to reverse the question to all the teachers/BB/experienced MAs here. What does make a student REMAIN at your school?

 

[donnaTKD]

Tames D

as for my leg they put metalwork in it -- have spelt this out elsewhere in these boards, also did updates as to progress too - it's still on the mend but it doesn't stop me from doing things. i hated the crutches and learnt to walk as was just short steps at a time, i climbed up and down the hospital stairs with the physio 2 days after surgery which is why i was allowed home and i just carried that on. the physio that i've got is satan to me - i hated what she did but i love her for it, she got me to the point where everything seemed normal again, she got me standing, walking, kicking (no equipment) again i owe her a lot and i owe scotty a lot too they both believed in what was achieveable plus i always have to test myself. i've lost count of the number of times where i've fought not being 100% - it's something that you get used to -- breaking things is just something that goes with territory in muay thai fighting.

i also said that i didn't trust my leg (still don't tbh) - i didn't kick with it till i got red mist and yup it hurt a lot believe me but if you want something bad enough then you'll do anything to make it happen just a matter of how much you can take - i take lot to break, i take a lot to be sidelined with "pain", it still takes a lot to put me down on the mat just that i know where my limits are and i've not gone beyond that point yet.

we got some new students at FC and i got paired with one and all he did was run off --- i mean wtf did he expect it's FC ffs ?????

 

[Balrog]

I don't know about your school but at mine its almost impossible to get new students, at my school about at least a good 7 out of 10 quit after the first class. In some way I'm curious about it. Our school has several other schools they teach the same methods and have more students (maybe because they live in a much larger populated area. But that's not the reason why I posted this, -- out of curiosity what are the chances if a new student comes to your class and quites the first day?

That's a reasonably serious problem. It's hard to answer without having seen your classes in action or the teaching style of the instructors, but something tells me that the newbies aren't getting positive reinforcement. The training is new to them, so they will be very lacking in confidence and it won't take much to discourage them. I'm not saying to mollycoddle them, but if the instructors make sure that the newbies are told they are doing a good job for their first time in class, it goes a long, long way toward retention.

 

[donald1]

Does the size of the town factor into it because my school has 3 locations, mine in a small town the other two are located in Austin and other in Dallas. But then again the school I go to is somewhat strict (not as strict as the stories my instructor would tell when he was a student) I know one student quite because he thought he could make black belt in a year or two. But in my guess what I think the answer is most people probably don't have time or money and a good percent that do just don't like the extra effort. None of our students will do anything to discourage students we go easy on them and teach simple stuff for the first few classes; strikes, blocks, kicks, and if they do good add sanchin stance

 

[donnaTKD]

i think that finances are the biggest stumbling block particularly if you're asking someone to sign a contract tha may be as much as half a weeks take home pay that's what it's like here

the boxing class at my gym has around 30 people attend and yet the muay thai class which is held directly after it and discounted prices are available for the 2 sessions together only has around 8 people attend (both tuesdays and thursdays) --- go figure that one oh and the thai fit and pads class held on friday only had 3 people attend last week

and yet if you look at the mcgym about a mile away they're booked solid but have contracts and rules and stuff which mean it's more strict etc......... i've been and tbh it's lightweight stuff but maybe that's what people want - training without too much effort ?????

 

[K-man]

i think that finances are the biggest stumbling block particularly if you're asking someone to sign a contract tha may be as much as half a weeks take home pay that's what it's like here

the boxing class at my gym has around 30 people attend and yet the muay thai class which is held directly after it and discounted prices are available for the 2 sessions together only has around 8 people attend (both tuesdays and thursdays) --- go figure that one oh and the thai fit and pads class held on friday only had 3 people attend last week

and yet if you look at the mcgym about a mile away they're booked solid but have contracts and rules and stuff which mean it's more strict etc......... i've been and tbh it's lightweight stuff but maybe that's what people want - training without too much effort ?????

My fees are less than 2.5% of take home pay or the equivalent of about five cups of coffee a week. And for a parent bringing a child it would be six cups of coffee. I believe that, here, fees are just an excuse not to train, not a reason.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

Another example a couple of weeks back. A lady emails me asking about self defence classes for four women. I replied that, yes I could certainly accommodate them either in an existing class or, with four, I could run a class specifically to meet their needs. I suggested she phone to discuss the details and guess what? No phone call. Why do people bother to call in the first place if they have no intention to follow up?

 

[WaterGal]

Now I would like to reverse the question to all the teachers/BB/experienced MAs here. What does make a student REMAIN at your school?

Offering something worthwhile at every level, and having a great community and positive environment. If taking class makes a beginner feel bad instead of excited and empowered, that's a problem.

We really don't have a problem with large numbers of students flaking out after a few months. We do have some problems with people getting frustrated around 5th geup or so, when the forms start to get hard and they finally know enough to know how much they don't know, but that's usually fixable. Mostly people leave because they're moving away, lost their job, a divorce, or are having medical problems.

 

[WaterGal]

Another example a couple of weeks back. A lady emails me asking about self defence classes for four women. I replied that, yes I could certainly accommodate them either in an existing class or, with four, I could run a class specifically to meet their needs. I suggested she phone to discuss the details and guess what? No phone call. Why do people bother to call in the first place if they have no intention to follow up?

Maybe she was looking for an established ongoing women's class to join, or wanted a female instructor, or there was some other reason why your offer didn't match what she was looking for? (Obviously I didn't read the e-mail, so that's just a guess.) It does seem, though, that people that call are more likely to actually follow up vs people that e-mail.

 

[Cirdan]

Biggest reason why people leave is simply they don`t really want to train.
Biggest reason why people stay is they really want to train and put in the time and effort.

Second biggest reason why people leave is class was not really what they expected.
Second biggest reason why people stay they liked the class.

In short there is not much you can do to make people stay except give good instruction and remain true to the art. Those who really want to do martial arts and keep training year after year are rare. The 7 out of 10 who go back watching tv and eating cheesy poofs after one class are not.

 

[donnaTKD]

i agree with that statement you made about people not wanting to put in the hard graft n stuff.

think also that some people think that they're gunna be like bruce lee or karate kid etc..... within a short space of time and then when they learn how long it's gunna take to get to that standard it's like "how long ????? and all this hard graft is for what ????? etc...."

think also that a lot of people try it so that they can go down the pub and show off to their mates - problem then is that they'll get mullered in a scuffle and become laughing stock. i see this quite a lot and my friends have seen the outcome of me putting more hours than sense into my training too.

the other excuse that i've heard is that "it's too hard" and "i can't keep up with the pace" -- this is just cos they're fat, lazy and or just unfit --- too many excuses and not enough will power to go through the barriers.

jmo..........

 

[Cirdan]

i agree with that statement you made about people not wanting to put in the hard graft n stuff.

think also that some people think that they're gunna be like bruce lee or karate kid etc..... within a short space of time and then when they learn how long it's gunna take to get to that standard it's like "how long ????? and all this hard graft is for what ????? etc...."

think also that a lot of people try it so that they can go down the pub and show off to their mates - problem then is that they'll get mullered in a scuffle and become laughing stock. i see this quite a lot and my friends have seen the outcome of me putting more hours than sense into my training too.

the other excuse that i've heard is that "it's too hard" and "i can't keep up with the pace" -- this is just cos they're fat, lazy and or just unfit --- too many excuses and not enough will power to go through the barriers.

jmo..........

Indeed. Some use to say that MA is for everybody but really that is BS. MA is for everybody who wants to train.

Those who want to be told they are both Superman and Bruce Lee in one body will join a mcdojo.

Those who want to mess people up at the pub will quit because training builds character and they want none of that.

Those who are lazy ("I am too unfit to train because I don`t train") will go back to the their cheesy poofs and tv.

 

[Transk53]

i agree with that statement you made about people not wanting to put in the hard graft n stuff.

think also that some people think that they're gunna be like bruce lee or karate kid etc..... within a short space of time and then when they learn how long it's gunna take to get to that standard it's like "how long ????? and all this hard graft is for what ????? etc...."

think also that a lot of people try it so that they can go down the pub and show off to their mates - problem then is that they'll get mullered in a scuffle and become laughing stock. i see this quite a lot and my friends have seen the outcome of me putting more hours than sense into my training too.

the other excuse that i've heard is that "it's too hard" and "i can't keep up with the pace" -- this is just cos they're fat, lazy and or just unfit --- too many excuses and not enough will power to go through the barriers.

jmo..........

Agree. Whether it is because of the southern softy thing or not lol, the hardest thing I have encountered with yours and Cirdan's post is "is not what was expected" With my continuing and long haul back to fitness, I started with one of those boxercise things. Doing a round robin of a simple left double jab and right, I was told "not power, just technique" I thought (two expletives) this instructor must be a ballerina. Hence I moved to another one, same difference though. The barrier was that you have to hold yourself back whatever fitness level you are. I spoke to a bloke after I think must have been a 4th sesh, and he said to me "great boxing workout" He looked dumbfounded when I told him "mate, that is not boxing"

As such I think these new fangled boot camp, boxercise and body combat add to the disintegration of interest of prospective students. They see nice and glossy flyers and websites that promote martial arts moves and such like, they try these arts for real and then realize that this **** is for real. Again this is just my personal opinion that those whom want to delve into the arts, will use these days use a search engine and find out for themselves. I just wished that philosophy existed at the Marina Studios. The instructor is a proper Boxer and understands that need for a tactile response. You only get that with meat and proper technique. I think the same is true for a MA class as well, many don't think it through properly and are shocked when someone wants to leather the pad. Thankfully down here, there is the ABC and Muay Thai and a few quiet but dedicated MA schools not filled with students that watched too much Yip Man films.

 

[donnaTKD]

i had a go at that boxercise and i was laughing and just having fun cos i wasn't allowed to "hit" the pad properly LoL

thought that it was a proper joke and the class was full of middle aged mom's with nothing better to do etc..... i showed the guy i was partnered with how to hit the pad properly and he like "why do that when i'm sweating now !" --- don't think that a lot of people are actually committed to what they're doing

the other excuse i came accross was "i come here for an hour cos it's something to do inbetween picking up the kids" -- to say i was stunned is an understatement. MA and it's exercise variants require the participant to put as much into it as possible or the benefits will never be felt.

there is no excuse for lack of hard graft but society has told everyone that they can have stuff on credit now and i think that they think that they can pay for MA in a mcdojo and they expect belts and to get fit -- like yesterday