Pride's Price

[jobo]

What'll make that punch harder isn't nearly the speed as it is effective mass being thrown around. I can make a slower punch just as hard as a faster punch if I put more of my weight behind it.

There's definitely a place for punching slowER (emphasis on the ER in slower). It'll disrupt my opponent's timing. Same way and reason as a baseball pitcher (and probably a cricket pitcher (?)) will vary the speed of their pitches - so the batter doesn't get used to a specific speed and easily time it. That doesn't mean I'll punch in slow motion for that, it just means I'll slow it down just enough to cause my opponent to block too early. If my opponent gets used to seeing every punch at 100 mph, a 90 mph punch will land after he's fully committed to his block/parry/slip. Bruce Lee was the first one I saw call it broken rythym, but I'm sure others probably called it that before him.

If you throw everything you can as fast as you can, your opponent will get their timing down eventually. Hopefully you've ended the fight beforehand.

There's reasons to slow down a bit, even in a genuine SD situation. Rare, but not completely nonexistent.

The sweep doesn't knock them off balance. It removes the leg, so they have no support. That requires only a small amount of kinetic energy, which can even be generated with your foot on the ground.

and if their leg goes sideways they have lost their balance, but ok how does a sweep that doesnt have enough kinetic energy to remove their,leg(s), move there leg (s)

 

[jobo]

Because you move them off-balance, and don't tell them it's coming.

Of course, if you want to talk about drills, those are cooperative, so they won't (shouldn't) be resisting the specific technique.

but i was specifically replying to a post where they are doing leg,sweep drills,SLOWLY, , so the guy is in balance AND expecting a leg sweep.

he also said it was a non resistant but non co operating partner, ie the partner didn't just fall over when touched

 

[jobo]

That's not the statement you made before. I agree with that.

yes, i think that,statement or very close to it, was made very early in my post count for this thread.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but i was specifically replying to a post where they are doing leg,sweep drills,SLOWLY, , so the guy is in balance AND expecting a leg sweep.

he also said it was a non resistant but non co operating partner, ie the partner didn't just fall over when touched

Falling over when touched is over-compliance. A compliant partner in a drill simply lets you do the movement (including pulling/pushing them into the entry of the technique), and falls when the movement works.

You asked how a sweep can be done slowly - I was describing that it can actually be done slowly even if the person doesn't know it's coming (so isn't helping make it happen), so long as they are already off-balance. A drill is a different matter, as I've outlined above and elsewhere.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yes, i think that,statement or very close to it, was made very early in my post count for this thread.

Okay, re-reading your posts with that in mind, I can see that's what you intended. Your earlier wording ("as fast or as hard as you can do them, whilst still maintain some thing like the form") read differently to me - like "do it as fast as you can and it still sorta looks like the technique".

 

[Danny T]

no timing is the control of speed, but first you need to build speed, that you can then control, slow motion timing is not a lot of use, unless you and the other guy are both in slow motion

Not when one person is quicker and/or faster than the other.

 

[jobo]

Not when one person is quicker and/or faster than the other.

don't understand that?
Il try again timing is the,control of,speed, what's your objection to that,statement?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

don't understand that?
Il try again timing is the,control of,speed, what's your objection to that,statement?

I think I understand your point. I'd add that timing is more than just control of speed - it's also control of stillness (waiting until the proper moment).

 

[jobo]

I think I understand your point. I'd add that timing is more than just control of speed - it's also control of stillness (waiting until the proper moment).

oh come on, stillness is a control of speed, like a,sprinter on the,starting blocks

 

[Gerry Seymour]

oh come on, stillness is a control of speed, like a,sprinter on the,starting blocks

Okay, if you want to be silly about it. But one need not be fast to be still, nor to have good timing. Being super-fast is less important than being fairly fast and having good timing.

 

[Anarax]

there is a whole other subject, of the bias of non resting partners towards actually co operating to make the sweep work

a leg sweep requires enough kinetic energy to kick the leg from under them and tip their balance, it just doesn't work at a slow speed. If the non resisting partner is falling over during a slow,drill, then they are,co operating ie falling over on purpose. If they actually stand their long enough for the slow,sweep to make contact instead of moving out of the way,, then they are co operating

The point I'm making with this post is the pride aspect of training. The training partner I'm referring to gives maximum resistance in almost anything we do, his pride is only a problem for him though. His pride is what he thinks he's preserving by resisting, yet he get's humiliated in sparring but he isn't humbled by the experience. The techniques he's resisting in training are techniques he knows exactly what I'm going to do, given it's a drill and not sparring. He thinks that if he can resist that it's proving something, but in sparring when he doesn't know what's going to happen he gets caught by almost everything.

Stick disarms are another example. There are some disarms that we have to modify for training purposes. For example, there's one disarm that you strike your opponents thumb with the butt end of our stick, breaking the opponents thumb and breaks his grip. We can't train this technique exactly given the injuries it would cause. We block, enter, angle the stick and do the move exactly the way we would, except we strike pass the thumb to build muscle memory. He wrenches down on the stick with maximum resistance, thinking he's proving something. However; in sparring he's easily disarmed, swept, struck, etc.

We can debate training methods all day long, but every instructor I've had always but form and technique first, speed and power second. The point still remains, he's only limiting himself by placing his pride above training.

 

[jobo]

Okay, if you want to be silly about it. But one need not be fast to be still, nor to have good timing. Being super-fast is less important than being fairly fast and having good timing.

but you making it an either/ or

timeing is being at the right place at the right time, the right place is a fixed point, so your speed needs to be judge to fit the right time, to soon and its wrong to slow,and your to late

when the right time is, is completely dependent on the,speed of the object you are trying to coincide with, if the object arrives before you do because you lack speed, then the timing is off. You can only ever have good timing if you have the speed to get there,

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but you making it an either/ or

timeing is being at the right place at the right time, the right place is a fixed point, so your speed needs to be judge to fit the right time, to soon and its wrong to slow,and your to late

when the right time is, is completely dependent on the,speed of the object you are trying to coincide with, if the object arrives before you do because you lack speed, then the timing is off. You can only ever have good timing if you have the speed to get there,

You simply must argue, mustn't you?

 

[jobo]

The point I'm making with this post is the pride aspect of training. The training partner I'm referring to gives maximum resistance in almost anything we do, his pride is only a problem for him though. His pride is what he thinks he's preserving by resisting, yet he get's humiliated in sparring but he isn't humbled by the experience. The techniques he's resisting in training are techniques he knows exactly what I'm going to do, given it's a drill and not sparring. He thinks that if he can resist that it's proving something, but in sparring when he doesn't know what's going to happen he gets caught by almost everything.

Stick disarms are another example. There are some disarms that we have to modify for training purposes. For example, there's one disarm that you strike your opponents thumb with the butt end of our stick, breaking the opponents thumb and breaks his grip. We can't train this technique exactly given the injuries it would cause. We block, enter, angle the stick and do the move exactly the way we would, except we strike pass the thumb to build muscle memory. He wrenches down on the stick with maximum resistance, thinking he's proving something. However; in sparring he's easily disarmed, swept, struck, etc.

We can debate training methods all day long, but every instructor I've had always but form and technique first, speed and power second. The point still remains, he's only limiting himself by placing his pride above training.

but the point I'm making is the whole co operating partner standing there with their arm out is what's wrong with tma, it has a place for the first few times, then you need a resisting partner so you can build the speed skill to do the techneque real time. If you cant grab their arm say, because they pull it away, then that's good, you know your to slow to ever use that in the real world, if you pull and they don't move your not strong enough.

if i can get my full resting partner on the floor in real time then i know is a sound techneque that i have got the hang off,

 

[jobo]

You simply must argue, mustn't you?

pot kettle black

 

[JR 137]

but its a,slow motion drill, where they are,expecting a leg sweep, why would they be a) of balance and b) not expecting it?

I must have missed the part of a drill. I was talking an actual encounter.

 

[JR 137]

but the point I'm making is the whole co operating partner standing there with their arm out is what's wrong with tma, it has a place for the first few times, then you need a resisting partner so you can build the speed skill to do the techneque real time. If you cant grab their arm say, because they pull it away, then that's good, you know your to slow to ever use that in the real world, if you pull and they don't move your not strong enough.

if i can get my full resting partner on the floor in real time then i know is a sound techneque that i have got the hang off,

While there are some TMAs out there who do everything you say, they're few and far between in my experience. More so a discussion of McDojo vs a good dojo than TMA vs modern (?) training. It's along the same lines of the idiotic TKD thread going on.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but the point I'm making is the whole co operating partner standing there with their arm out is what's wrong with tma, it has a place for the first few times, then you need a resisting partner so you can build the speed skill to do the techneque real time. If you cant grab their arm say, because they pull it away, then that's good, you know your to slow to ever use that in the real world, if you pull and they don't move your not strong enough.

if i can get my full resting partner on the floor in real time then i know is a sound techneque that i have got the hang off,

I agree with everything, except the presumption that TMA (as a whole) never progresses past that overly-cooperative point.

 

[JR 137]

no timing is the control of speed, but first you need to build speed, that you can then control, slow motion timing is not a lot of use, unless you and the other guy are both in slow motion

No. Timing is WHEN you hit, block, move, etc. Nothing to do with controlling it, how to do it, etc.

 

[JR 137]

and if their leg goes sideways they have lost their balance, but ok how does a sweep that doesnt have enough kinetic energy to remove their,leg(s), move there leg (s)

It can simply stop their leg from moving and not allowing them to regain their balance.