Pressure points?

[Tez3]

I find this hard to believe considering how guys like Cro Cop needed to take a break after getting hit by their foes. And these guys were wearing cups. And they were pros who did what they did for a living.

I've seen dudes in rel life as well who get hit in the nuts.

When fighting competitively and fighters get hit in the nuts they will take the maximum amount of time the ref allows to get back, not because it hurts so much but it gives them a quick breather and more importantly unsettles their opponent ( not foes, they are actually likely to be mates outside the cage) what you see in competitive fights isn't always what is actually happening.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I find this hard to believe considering how guys like Cro Cop needed to take a break after getting hit by their foes. And these guys were wearing cups. And they were pros who did what they did for a living.

I've seen dudes in rel life as well who get hit in the nuts.

Who ever told you that wearing a cup keeps it from hurting lied.

And most of the drama in competition is just that; drama. It lets the guy stop and breath, it disrupts your opponents pace, it generates sympathy from the referee and judges...

Half of the drama resulting from the typical groin kick is ingrained because people expect it to be some terrible ordeal.

The same thing happens with most new students, the first time they take ANY hard shot. They've never been hit, so they think this is the worst pain anybody in the entire world ever experienced and they collapse. 6 months of sparring later, and the same shot will be ignored.

One of the security officers in our ER was kicked in the sack by a really nasty homeless guy two weeks ago. The officer was new. Those of us who've been around a while know this guy and know what he's like, and someone should have warned him. After being kicked, the officer took the guy to the ground, several others jumped in, and the jerk was subdued. 7 hours later, because it was still hurting, the officer checked in. The ultrasound showed a ruptured testicle. That's about as bad an injury as you can expect from a groin kick, but it didn't debilitate him. It didn't even stop him from finishing his shift.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I an interested to know if you have ever had any instruction on anatomical pressure points from a legitimate combat perspective. Have you ever had training to any certifiable level through a recognizable authority in "western combat" usage; in other words "western" medical anatomy study for combat purposes?
I am looking for reputable resources on such matters.

Nope never been trained to a certifiable level through a recognizable authority in "western combat" usage..... but then much of this does not come from the west

What the hell is ""western" medical anatomy study for combat purposes"???

That is a question I would really like to see an answer too

 

[Dirty Dog]

That is a question I would really like to see an answer too

Me too. My masters is in human physiology, and not ONE class was geared towards combat...

 

[oftheherd1]

I find this hard to believe considering how guys like Cro Cop needed to take a break after getting hit by their foes. And these guys were wearing cups. And they were pros who did what they did for a living.

I've seen dudes in rel life as well who get hit in the nuts.

I had to look up Cro Cop, however hard you may find that to believe. I have no idea what happened to him at that time.

I know I was once kicked in the gonads while wearing a steel cup (Note: be sure to get one that fits, not just close enough). My goodies were caught between the rear edge of the cup and the area of my body between my thighs. That hurt. It was in a practice sparring bout so there was no further danger from my opponent, who was somewhat embarrassed about the whole thing. Had it been a real fight, I think I might have been somewhat impaired, but able to put up some defense. On the other hand, I have seen people kicked there who could only fall down and begin vomiting.

I think it depends on the exact area hit, the person hit, and his overall condition. You may agree or disagree.

 

[Tez3]

I think it depends on the exact area hit, the person hit, and his overall condition. You may agree or disagree.

The thing is though, never to rely on a chap going down if you do hit him there, he might but it would be a mistake if you banked on it.

You may get a chance to watch Crocop fight, he's supposedly signed up with UFC again with a fight scheduled in April.

 

[oftheherd1]

The thing is though, never to rely on a chap going down if you do hit him there, he might but it would be a mistake if you banked on it.

You may get a chance to watch Crocop fight, he's supposedly signed up with UFC again with a fight scheduled in April.

Agreed on the fact your opponent may not go down nor stop fighting. See Dirty Dog's description of an incident in the ER.

As to Cro Cop, I doubt it. I just never got into that style of fighting.

 

[Tez3]

As to Cro Cop, I doubt it. I just never got into that style of fighting.

You wouldn't like what he did then before he did MMA.

 

[drop bear]

I find this hard to believe considering how guys like Cro Cop needed to take a break after getting hit by their foes. And these guys were wearing cups. And they were pros who did what they did for a living.

I've seen dudes in rel life as well who get hit in the nuts.

but considering you can take a nut shot break it is silly not to.

Sparring on the other hand you sort of cant so people tend not to.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I use pressure points all the time, specifically for pain compliance. They can be quite effective, if used properly but as mentioned previously, 'nothing works on everyone all the time'. As far as professional training, well, I consider my martial arts training as professional training. Additionally I consider my academy and instructor certifications as professional training. From a medical perspective I've taken multiple course on cranial-sacral and tri-release therapy. This enhanced the martial training from a more in-depth anatomical perspective.

 

[WaterGal]

Pretty much so. In my experience, when used correctly on a susceptible person, they work very well to cause extreme pain. That will cause the opponent to lose focus and allow easy strikes or grapples against him. However, I have also found there are people who are seemingly not susceptible to all pressure points. They don't feel pain on all points, so beware. Or I am not as good as the masters (very probable).

I agree with this. Pressure points aren't like in the movies where you scream and pass out from getting poked in the arm or whatever. But they can be a good way to get somebody to shift their weight or be distracted. Like if you're grappling with someone and they've got you wrapped up, you may be able to knuckle them in a pressure point to get them to loosen their grip or pull back, giving you an opportunity to escape their hold. And yeah, how well they work is going to depend on the person.

 

[Runs With Fire]

What the hell is ""western" medical anatomy study for combat purposes"???

Outside of eastern philosophies, published through a recognized medical authority and presented in a way as to be applicable to the martial artist, not just for nerologists

 

[thanson02]

Just an idea, but I would look into is Trigger Points on the body. My wife is a message therapist and she found a lot of correlation between pressure points and trigger points as well as what is called "danger spots" that they are suppose to avoid in their practice.

There is also a website called Warrior Science that has some interesting stuff in it. Not sure if they have stuff on pressure points, but worth checking out.

 

[Runs With Fire]

Just an idea, but I would look into is Trigger Points on the body. My wife is a message therapist and she found a lot of correlation between pressure points and trigger points as well as what is called "danger spots" that they are suppose to avoid in their practice.

There is also a website called Warrior Science that has some interesting stuff in it. Not sure if they have stuff on pressure points, but worth checking out.

that is the type of information I am looking for. I have studied a bit through acupressure. My school is holding pressure point study for our black belts through the month. not to make us more deadly, but to give us a better understanding of what we are doing. we are covering about thirty basic and easy access points that correspond with striking areas and fighting technique. It is amazing to understand. It doesn't make you more deadly, it helps us to be refined and understand why the body works the way it does. It has helped to give me an appreciation of the arts and to contemplate the severity and longevity of potential injury to my training partners. I have talked to the owner of my school and he wants to help me study pressure points to further depths.
I was just hoping to find some additional information sources. I am so fascinated with the concepts of understanding more about anatomical function and how what we do correlates to science.

 

[Runs With Fire]

Just an idea, but I would look into is Trigger Points on the body. My wife is a message therapist and she found a lot of correlation between pressure points and trigger points as well as what is called "danger spots" that they are suppose to avoid in their practice.

It is my understanding that "trigger points" and "danger zones" corelate with both single pressure points and tight groups of them. there are over seven hundred named pressure points and most of them are useless outside of neurology textbooks.

 

[Runs With Fire]

Me too. My masters is in human physiology, and not ONE class was geared towards combat...

But isn't that what many of us in the arts are trying to do? It is more than just learning to fight.

 

[thanson02]

that is the type of information I am looking for. I have studied a bit through acupressure. My school is holding pressure point study for our black belts through the month. not to make us more deadly, but to give us a better understanding of what we are doing. we are covering about thirty basic and easy access points that correspond with striking areas and fighting technique. It is amazing to understand. It doesn't make you more deadly, it helps us to be refined and understand why the body works the way it does. It has helped to give me an appreciation of the arts and to contemplate the severity and longevity of potential injury to my training partners. I have talked to the owner of my school and he wants to help me study pressure points to further depths.
I was just hoping to find some additional information sources. I am so fascinated with the concepts of understanding more about anatomical function and how what we do correlates to science.

It is a good idea. It is always important to get a better understanding of your practice. I mentioned this discussion to my wife and she is interested in putting her understanding to the table. The rest of this message is from her.

- Hello! I'm excited that you're interested in this sort of thing - I am as well. I am a massage therapist, and consequently I've had multiple A&P courses, as well as tutoring specifically designed to understand where pressure points are located, and why they bear the results they do. Largely, what you're dealing with are the more vulnerable areas of the body - fragile bone protrusions, sutures as in the skull, foramens (the glass jaw, for instance, is a hole in the jaw where a vein travels through), as well as areas where veins and arteries come close to the surface of the skin. My knowledge of acupressure is amateur, but a basic explanation would be that interrupting the steady flow of the body's systems, either by speeding it up via short burst or cutting it off abruptly, has a significant effect on the bodily systems. Ki is affected similarly, I believe, but once again I'm not in a position to say. I don't have any resources to offer that specifically cover the subject, but our instructor recommended reading "The Web That Has No Weaver: Understanding Chinese Medicine" by Ted Kaptchuk; it's a heavy read, mind you, but terribly informative. Another favorite of mine is "The Complete Book of Chinese Health and Healing: Guarding the Three Treasures" by Daniel Reid and Dexter Chou. Understanding what these points are is a systemic study; you must know the body before you can know any one part of it, because it is impossible for any part to exist separately.-

 

[Runs With Fire]

Very good, thank you.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Outside of eastern philosophies, published through a recognized medical authority and presented in a way as to be applicable to the martial artist, not just for nerologists

You do realize there are medical schools in China right? And the Harvard of TCM is in Beijing and has a lot on points. As a matter of fact those who graduate from there have to know good and bad points...but those who graduate from there will also tell you there are points that are pretty much only used in martial arts.

 

[geezer]

You do realize there are medical schools in China right? And the Harvard of TCM is in Beijing and has a lot on points. As a matter of fact those who graduate from there have to know good and bad points...but those who graduate from there will also tell you there are points that are pretty much only used in martial arts.

Xue, the trouble with your response is that it doesn't adress the OP's concern with explaining TCM in concrete "Western" terms. According to what I've come accross (and my knowledge in this area is admittedly very shallow) there really aren't any conclusive studies (oustside China) that support the whole TCM theoretical construct of qi, meridians, points, and so on. At least that is the upshot of the following summary taken from the Wikipedia entry on accupuncture. After a lengthy discussion of many aspects of Accupuncture, the article considers the fundamental question of effectiveness as measured in controlled studies:

Effectiveness[edit]
The application of evidence-based medicine to researching acupuncture's effectiveness is a controversial activity, and has produced different results in a growing evidence base of research.[14] Some research results suggest acupuncture can alleviate pain but others consistently suggest that acupuncture's effects are mainly due to placebo.[3] It is difficult but not impossible to design rigorous research trials for acupuncture.[63][64] Due to acupuncture's invasive nature, one of the major challenges in efficacy research is in the design of an appropriate placebo control group.[14][15] For efficacy studies to determine whether acupuncture has specific effects, "sham" forms of acupuncture where the patient, practitioner, and analyst are blinded seem the most acceptable approach.[63] The under-performance of acupuncture interventions in such sham controlled trials may indicate that therapeutic effects are due entirely to non-specific effects, or that the sham treatments are not inert or systematic protocols yield less than optimal treatment.[65][66] A 2012 review found "A common control procedure has been the use of sham acupuncture where needles are inserted on either meridians not specific for the condition under study, or in areas outside meridians; often this is coupled with a more superficial needle insertion than what is performed in the true acupuncture group."[67] The research seems to suggest that needles do not need to stimulate the traditionally specified acupuncture points or penetrate the skin to attain an anticipated effect (e.g. psychosocial factors).[5] A 2012 review found "acupuncture was not better than sham interventions or conventional therapy in the longer term."[67] The evidence suggests that any benefits of acupuncture are short-lasting.[16]
Any evidence on the effectiveness of acupuncture is "variable and inconsistent, even for single conditions",[11] and publication bias is cited as a concern in the reviews of randomized controlled trials (RCTs) of acupuncture.[11][68][69] A 1998 review of studies on acupuncture found that trials originating in China, Japan, Hong Kong and Taiwan were uniformly favourable to acupuncture, as were ten out of 11 studies conducted in Russia.[70] A 2011 assessment of the quality of RCTs on TCM, including acupuncture, concluded that the methodological quality of most such trials (including randomization, experimental control and blinding) was generally poor, particularly for trials published in Chinese journals (though the quality of acupuncture trials was better than the drug-related trials).[71] The study also found that trials published in non-Chinese journals tended to be of higher quality.[71]
A 2014 Nature Reviews Cancer article found that "contrary to the claimed mechanism of redirecting the flow of qi through meridians, researchers usually find that it generally does not matter where the needles are inserted, how often (that is, no dose-response effect is observed), or even if needles are actually inserted. In other words, ‘sham’ or ‘placebo’ acupuncture generally produces the same effects as ‘real’ acupuncture and, in some cases, does better."[72] A 2013 meta-analysis found little evidence that the effectiveness of acupuncture on pain (compared to sham) was modified by the location of the needles, the number of needles used, the experience or technique of the practitioner, or by the circumstances of the sessions.[73] The same analysis also suggested that the number of needles and sessions is important, as greater numbers improved the outcomes of acupuncture compared to non-acupuncture controls.[73] A 2013 editorial found that the inconsistency of results of acupuncture studies (that acupuncture relieved pain in some conditions but had no effect in other very similar conditions) suggests false positive results, which may be caused by factors like biased study designs, poor blinding, and the classification of electrified needles (a type of TENS) as acupuncture.[11] The same editorial suggested that given the inability to find consistent results despite more than 3,000 studies of acupuncture, the treatment seems to be a placebo effect and the existing equivocal positive results are noise one expects to see after a large number of studies are performed on an inert therapy.[11] It concluded that the best controlled studies showed a clear pattern, in which the outcome does not rely upon needle location or even needle insertion, and since "these variables are those that define acupuncture, the only sensible conclusion is that acupuncture does not work."[11]

Please don't get me wrong here. I am well aware of Wikipedia's limitations and potential for bias, and I am not personally qualified to assert any opinion on this topic. I merely included this to show the inherent difficulty in addressing what I understand to be the OP's request ...namely for information that is backed up by Western scientific research and studies..