PRESET BUNKAI - If Someone Does This, You Do This

[isshinryuronin]

The idea for this thread came from Simon in his post on another thread concerned with kata. He expressed that a series of kata moves, A>B>C presupposes too much and on its own is a too "superficial" view of bunkai: "if someone does this, you do this," and so there must be more to kata than that. Things rarely go as planned in a fight. Maybe B won't conveniently come after A. Two main ideas come to play here (which Kung Fu Wang touched on in that thread): Set up and control. Both, I think relate to a core strategic concept in combat - Reducing the variables. I haven't thought of combat strategy in such simple terms before (I'm a fan of "simple").

Sun Tzu wrote about "open" ground and "restricted" ground. He advised not to attack on open ground as the opponent has great ability to maneuver with many options, and not to put oneself onto restricted ground as that will limit your own options and thus give your enemy less variables to worry about. So, in a fight, we want to restrict the opponent's options. Sometimes the physical ground will afford this opportunity - if slippery, or there's a corner we can back him into, etc. However, many times we find ourselves on open ground and must rely on tactics and special techniques to control variables and limit the opponent's options. It so happens that the old karate masters knew this and we can find such things in traditional kata.

Old Okinawan karate was based on grabbing or otherwise physically manipulating the opponent's guard to limit his motion while creating angles to facilitate landing strikes. In that A>B>C series in a kata, the A and B are often those variable reducing moves which allow the C strike to land. There are a lot of other good things to be gained from kata as well, most of which will aid in one's overall karate development and help that strike land when needed.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think that pre-set bunkai can be useful for beginners as a way of opening their eyes to what is possible as well as giving them some material that can be quickly functional, while they are working on developing their own spontaneity. The pre-sets should be limited to a small body of material so that it does not become a crutch to be leaned on beyond the early stages, and so that it does not become cumbersome as a large and dysfunctional curriculum. I think that is the mistake made in some systems: failing to recognize the limited value this kind of material has, and adjusting the focus of the training appropriately.

The pre-sets could also introduce concepts that are more deeply developed in the later kata, and so are used as building blocks in the course of development.

 

[Fungus]

core strategic concept in combat - Reducing the variables. I haven't thought of combat strategy in such simple terms before (I'm a fan of "simple").

Excellent highlight.

This is how i can see how all experienced fighters do as well, it's not only about reading what your opponets is going to do, but to manipulate them - control - or "reduce the variables" as you put it. I have had this happend to me many times, it can be as simple as manipulating me to move in one direction, then my instructory silently just place a foot behind my heel and smiled, and then did a move that made be "back down" and i obviously tripped backwards. That is real mastery, so simple, but very effective with minimum power if you just know what to do. I've very inspired by that and is trying to learn more such techniques.

 

[Dirty Dog]

As long as you avoid the pitfall of thinking that THIS is the only response to THAT.

 

[Fungus]

As long as you avoid the pitfall of thinking that THIS is the only response to THAT.

I guess the meaning of "reducing the variables" is that the manipulation can at least get you to the point where instead of beeing prepared to a continuum of responses making it very difficuly to be prepared, you end up with say 2 or 3 highly probably responses, then its worth to place a bets on on of them and you may get a better hitrate.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I guess the meaning of "reducing the variables" is that the manipulation can at least get you to the point where instead of beeing prepared to a continuum of responses making it very difficuly to be prepared, you end up with say 2 or 3 highly probably responses, then its worth to place a bets on on of them and you may get a better hitrate.

Right. If you move in on an angle, the opponent will be out of position for say a kick with his back leg or a hear hand cross. He may still be able to do a lead backfist. This option can be taken away by grabbing his lead arm. But he may be able to still do a spinning elbow with his other arm. Now you have just one thing to be on the lookout for (and have a prepared response ready) during your attack instead of three or four.

I think karate properly employed has a very high hit landing % as it offers many tools to reduce the options for counterattack and for immobilizing your target: Grabbing, pulling, angles, leg/hip checks, etc.

 

[drop bear]

Strangely enough there is value in knowing what there highest percentage response is and countering it before they do it.

So you can move through their space as safely as possible.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Reducing the variables.

To make a fight simple is the key.

- How can I just give my opponent the minimum number of choices?
- How can I lead my opponent into an area that I'm more familiar with than he does?

The "circular dragging" can be a good example. When you do that, you have controlled his leading arm. His back arm is too far to reach you. You don't have to worry about his punch. Since you force your opponent to put more weight on his leading leg, both of his feet can't kick you. You only give him 3 options:

1. resist against you.
2. yield into you.
3. use straight line to cut in front of you.

If you have trained all 3 responds daily, you will have more experience in this area than your opponent has. That will be your advantage.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The idea for this thread came from Simon in his post on another thread concerned with kata. He expressed that a series of kata moves, A>B>C presupposes too much and on its own is a too "superficial" view of bunkai: "if someone does this, you do this," and so there must be more to kata than that. Things rarely go as planned in a fight. Maybe B won't conveniently come after A. Two main ideas come to play here (which Kung Fu Wang touched on in that thread): Set up and control. Both, I think relate to a core strategic concept in combat - Reducing the variables. I haven't thought of combat strategy in such simple terms before (I'm a fan of "simple").

Sun Tzu wrote about "open" ground and "restricted" ground. He advised not to attack on open ground as the opponent has great ability to maneuver with many options, and not to put oneself onto restricted ground as that will limit your own options and thus give your enemy less variables to worry about. So, in a fight, we want to restrict the opponent's options. Sometimes the physical ground will afford this opportunity - if slippery, or there's a corner we can back him into, etc. However, many times we find ourselves on open ground and must rely on tactics and special techniques to control variables and limit the opponent's options. It so happens that the old karate masters knew this and we can find such things in traditional kata.

Old Okinawan karate was based on grabbing or otherwise physically manipulating the opponent's guard to limit his motion while creating angles to facilitate landing strikes. In that A>B>C series in a kata, the A and B are often those variable reducing moves which allow the C strike to land. There are a lot of other good things to be gained from kata as well, most of which will aid in one's overall karate development and help that strike land when needed.

As you know, kata has bunkai. Bunkai has levels. The first is what it looks like is what it is. A block is a block, a strike is a strike. It works, but it's the simplest form of application. "I am applying a middle body block in response to a straight punch."

The next is more application buried in the technique. Some refer to them as 'secret' when they are not; they are merely not taught until the student is ready to learn the more advanced techniques. What appears to be a block in the kata may be a strike, or something entirely different. The kata will still look like the kata, however.

The last is the deepest level of kata, which is much more open to interpretation in application. One might struggle to see how an expressed application is actually part of the kata it is described as being part of, but to the trained eye, it is there. This the no-nonsense set of applications that can be nearly infinite in number; different teachers have different applications, and karateka are expected to develop their own as well. These are the techniques that are said to advance and retreat, enter and depart, as needed and as appropriate. Techniques will develop in the absence of conscious thought. "But he's not doing the kata!" they cry. Sure he is. If you can't see it, you can't see it.

I don't claim mastery. I'm still working on the second level, I may never reach the third. But I have seen it, I understand the idea, and I know it when I see it.

This is where surface-level karateka and quitters get all wrapped around the axle over kata. "It won't work in a real fight." Well, no, probably not based on what some of you have been taught or what level you were at when you decided to quit.

Kata is a beautiful set of brushes and instructions on how paintings can be made. But you have to paint the canvas. Competent instruction and practice over a long period of time will achieve that goal.

 

[isshinryuronin]

This the no-nonsense set of applications that can be nearly infinite in number; different teachers have different applications, and karateka are expected to develop their own as well..... Techniques will develop in the absence of conscious thought. "But he's not doing the kata!" they cry. Sure he is. If you can't see it, you can't see it.

I agree, but IMO it's important to know when you exit the kata's main road and to then return to it after any detours.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I guess the meaning of "reducing the variables" is that the manipulation can at least get you to the point where instead of beeing prepared to a continuum of responses making it very difficuly to be prepared, you end up with say 2 or 3 highly probably responses, then its worth to place a bets on on of them and you may get a better hitrate.

It's been my experience that people go through stages.
What should I do? - Because you really don't know what to do in response to an attack.
I'll do this. - Because you know one or two things you can do in response to the same attack.
What should I do? - this time it's because you are choosing between options.
Most people train to the second stage. And that's fine.

 

[marvin8]

Right. If you move in on an angle, the opponent will be out of position for say a kick with his back leg or a hear hand cross. He may still be able to do a lead backfist. This option can be taken away by grabbing his lead arm. But he may be able to still do a spinning elbow with his other arm. Now you have just one thing to be on the lookout for (and have a prepared response ready) during your attack instead of three or four.

I think karate properly employed has a very high hit landing % as it offers many tools to reduce the options for counterattack and for immobilizing your target: Grabbing, pulling, angles, leg/hip checks, etc.

This karate guy demoes principles and concepts that I agree with and falls under the following fighting skills. I may not agree with his tactics and techniques.

1. Lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go where you want him to go,
2. Listen: feel or detect what the opponent wants to do,
3. Control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced),
4. Dissolve: neutralize the attacking force, and
5. Attack: release a throwing force

Sensei Jeff Driscoll Introduces the Options Drill Part I.

Sensei Jeff Driscoll Introduces the Options Drill Part II.

Jeff Driscoll Introduces Kosho Ryu Kempo concepts and principles of throwing.

 

[skribs]

As I said in the other thread - it really depends. In this case, I'd say it depends on:

1. How realistic the bunkai is to begin with?
2. Do you start with high percentage techniques for high percentage situations and expand appropriately? Either with more coverage of high percentage situations, or with a gameplan that stems from the first technique.
3. Do you practice those techniques in a situation to see how well they work and troubleshoot why they don't?

One could argue that the drilling portion of BJJ class is "kata". There's a specific read your partner is supposed to give you in order to do the technique. The kata doesn't look like a kata. It's not taken home and memorized like a kata. But it kind of is. For example, a drill at my school may be:

1. A pulls guard and locks closed guard.
2. B breaks guard and stands up.
3. A sets up DLR.
4. B gets a certain grip that makes them susceptible to a sweep.
5. A sets up the sweep and executes.

The next drill may do steps 1-3 the same, but change step 4 so that B has a different grip or gives a different read, and so A will do a different technique in step 5.

Some schools do this less (ecological training schools in which the vast majority of technical training comes from specific games), some do more (Roy Dean has crucibles for belt promotions, in which the first half is student-created kata to demonstrate techniques in sequence).