Pre-black-belt progression

[CB Jones]

I don't believe kids that age get or understand much and are just going through the motions.

I disagree. I think kids that are truly interested and dedicated understand a lot more than what you give them credit for.

I've seen some pretty impressive kids in our travels.

 

[Buka]

New member here, but wanted to chime in. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement of some kids just not "getting it". We've all seen the videos of these young kids who appear to be complete animals in their training. Unfortunately, they are few and far between. "Most" kids can go through the motions, but many do so with no emotion and/or feeling and do not "get it" whatsoever. This is why I have a problem with seeing young kids with higher ranks, especially a kid under 12 with a 2nd degree BB on. I never understood that and never will. They don't have the mental capacity to be ranked that high, no matter how long they have been training. Unfortunately, too many schools are money motivated and little Johnny's parents want some results after spending roughly $1,500 or so a year.

Welcome to Martial Talk, Tait.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I disagree. I think kids that are truly interested and dedicated understand a lot more than what you give them credit for.

I've seen some pretty impressive kids in our travels.

Sure there are. But I'm pretty sure the conversation was about normal, average kids.

 

[WhiteBeltNoStripe]

Welcome to Martial Talk, Tait.

Thank you. I realized I had an account already from back in 2010, but am just now getting back into training. There is so much information on the site and I thank every contributor for adding wisdom.

 

[skribs]

Sure there are. But I'm pretty sure the conversation was about normal, average kids.

I don't think martial arts students are normal, average kids.

 

[Steve]

I don't think martial arts students are normal, average kids.

Why not? What's abnormal about them, as a group?

 

[skribs]

Why not? What's abnormal about them, as a group?

Two things: the training itself, and their parents.

Typically, a martial arts student learns discipline, commitment, and a strong work ethic. That can be built in other ways, yes. School sports, after-school programs, strict parenting, etc. But not everyone gets those, either. Lots of kids have very little direction. They go to school, then go home and goof off all day. I'd argue that's more and more kids nowadays, since teachers have less authority and parents seem more interested in being their kids friends than being their parents.

That's the other thing: the parents. I've heard so many horror stories of school teachers (regular school, not martial arts school) who have parents coming down and complaining if their kid gets in trouble or gets a bad grade. And the parents complain loud enough to whatever higher authority will listen, and the teacher has to give the kid an A or take away their detention, even though the poor grade or the punishment was earned. That doesn't happen at my Taekwondo school. If anything, the parents are more likely to complain that we're being too lenient on their kids, or not pushing their kids hard enough!

All of our children students are their because their parents want them to learn at least one of confidence, discipline, diligence, or self-defense. Or, at the very least, they want their kid to get exercise or have something to set them apart on their college applications later in life. Or it could be something the kid wants to do, or something the parent wants to do with the kid. All of these cases have one thing in common: the parents are actively invested in their kids lives. And kids with invested parents tend to excel.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Why not? What's abnormal about them, as a group?

I think we get a disproportionaly large percentage (Compared to the average population or other sports programs) of kids who my have "Issues" and parents are seeking MA as a away to help overcome those issues. '

 

[isshinryuronin]

Two things: the training itself, and their parents.

Typically, a martial arts student learns discipline, commitment, and a strong work ethic. That can be built in other ways, yes. School sports, after-school programs, strict parenting, etc. But not everyone gets those, either. Lots of kids have very little direction. They go to school, then go home and goof off all day. I'd argue that's more and more kids nowadays, since teachers have less authority and parents seem more interested in being their kids friends than being their parents.

That's the other thing: the parents. I've heard so many horror stories of school teachers (regular school, not martial arts school) who have parents coming down and complaining if their kid gets in trouble or gets a bad grade. And the parents complain loud enough to whatever higher authority will listen, and the teacher has to give the kid an A or take away their detention, even though the poor grade or the punishment was earned. That doesn't happen at my Taekwondo school. If anything, the parents are more likely to complain that we're being too lenient on their kids, or not pushing their kids hard enough!

All of our children students are their because their parents want them to learn at least one of confidence, discipline, diligence, or self-defense. Or, at the very least, they want their kid to get exercise or have something to set them apart on their college applications later in life. Or it could be something the kid wants to do, or something the parent wants to do with the kid. All of these cases have one thing in common: the parents are actively invested in their kids lives. And kids with invested parents tend to excel.

I agree. But with the exception of those parents who use karate class as a baby sitter, or to tire the kids out so they cause less mayhem at home.

I also agree with Tait re: young kids "not getting it" and just going thru the motions, getting a black belt at 10 or 12 years old. Even thought a 10 year old may enjoy Tom Sawyer or Huck Finn by Mark Twain as a tale of young boys getting into mischief, I doubt they would appreciate and understand the racial and socio-economic undertones, and really "get it."

Now, maybe an "abnormal" 8 yr. old with plenty of private lessons and personalized instruction from a talented teacher may really understand what they're doing, but within a group class environment I think such a thing would be rare.

 

[skribs]

I agree. But with the exception of those parents who use karate class as a baby sitter, or to tire the kids out so they cause less mayhem at home.

I also agree with Tait re: young kids "not getting it" and just going thru the motions, getting a black belt at 10 or 12 years old. Even thought a 10 year old may enjoy Tom Sawyer or Huck Finn by Mark Twain as a tale of young boys getting into mischief, I doubt they would appreciate and understand the racial and socio-economic undertones, and really "get it."

Now, maybe an "abnormal" 8 yr. old with plenty of private lessons and personalized instruction from a talented teacher may really understand what they're doing, but within a group class environment I think such a thing would be rare.

Then my school must be rare, because more of my students get it than don't.

 

[dvcochran]

I think we get a disproportionaly large percentage (Compared to the average population or other sports programs) of kids who my have "Issues" and parents are seeking MA as a away to help overcome those issues. '

When you say "issues" are you referring to parents bringing in their child and claiming they have a problem or is this something you discover after working with the child a while?
We have a pretty thorough screening process and the normal interview process takes upwards of an hour. It really helps in understanding what part of a kids profile from is a neurotic parent and what is a genuine concern. No, you cannot just walk in and sign up at our schools. Referrals are a big part of our business. We have/had kids (and adults) from all Autism levels and spectrum and with sever physical challenges. It has been a while but we tried a specific class for "unique" kids but it just did not work and felt wrong. It is more of a challenge for the instructors(s) but it is better to set the tone and work everyone out together.
Setting the tone is not something that can be turned on and off. This is an area I feel many programs/people fail at regardless whether talking about MA's or any other area of business/life.
For example, I believe kids have a genuine sense of knowing if a person is genuine and serious. If they know/sense this things like a MA class run much smoother. Can this be fun? Absolutely.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Then my school must be rare, because more of my students get it than don't.

Is it the kids, or the teacher, that makes your school rare?

 

[skribs]

Is it the kids, or the teacher, that makes your school rare?

Probably the teacher (not me, well also me).

Which means then that kids can get it, given the right teaching.

 

[Earl Weiss]

When you say "issues" are you referring to parents bringing in their child and claiming they have a problem or is this something you discover after working with the child a while?
.

Typically after working with the Child a while. Scenario is something like noticing attention and hyper activity issues beyond what seems to be "Normal" range. Then asking parent about it and getting an answer like "MY child is ADHD but we don't give them the meds before "TKD" class. " One who had problems following directions and finding out he was deaf in one ear. Got better when we made sure we were on the good ear side issuing verbal commands. I guess they just didn't understand where the form asks about any medical conditions we should be aware of.

 

[dvcochran]

Typically after working with the Child a while. Scenario is something like noticing attention and hyper activity issues beyond what seems to be "Normal" range. Then asking parent about it and getting an answer like "MY child is ADHD but we don't give them the meds before "TKD" class. " One who had problems following directions and finding out he was deaf in one ear. Got better when we made sure we were on the good ear side issuing verbal commands. I guess they just didn't understand where the form asks about any medical conditions we should be aware of.

Understood. It always amazes me what can be gleaned from a face to face conversation/meeting versus a form that can be selectively filled out. We use forms for the legalities but the interview seals the deal.
I don't consider myself a good conversationalist, more like a poor one because I have to really work on not being too direct. Engineering mentality. But over time I have learned what things to ask and how to ask them without leaving the parent(s) offended. And being honest, when it is an environment where you are the wanted and not the other way around, that makes it a lot easier to get the whole story. Reputation goes a long way since we are Not like some pre-school for the elite that everybody wants to get their kid into.
It is amazing the things you find out about kids. I remember several occasions of finding vision and hearing impairment, some structural issues that required surgery and such. I am certain there have been more than a few that would have registered on the ADHD scale had they been tested. Usually I will tell a concerned parent that their kid is just being a normal energetic kid and that it is much better than them being a slug that does nothing. I don't ever remember telling a parent I thought their kid had ADHD since that is not my job. I am however quick to explain that the only way the discipline they learn at class will work at home is with reinforcement from the parent.

 

[Acronym]

Just curious how your schools organize new techniques and belts before black belt. Do you have a lot of tests? Just a few?

Are new techniques typically learned in bunches, or sprinkled throughout the belts? Are there belts where there's not a whole lot new, or do you try to include something every belt?

You have the patterns for the belt grade and that's the techniques covered in there as well. I'm not sure what else there could be that you are referring to.

 

[skribs]

You have the patterns for the belt grade and that's the techniques covered in there as well. I'm not sure what else there could be that you are referring to.

Please show me in the Kukkiwon Taegeuk forms where there is:

• Back Kick
• Step-Behind Side Kick
• Hook Kick
• Spinning Hook Kick
• Tornado Kick
• Jump Roundhouse Kick
• Flying Side Kick
• Jump Back Kick
• Jump Spinning Hook Kick
• Double Roundhouse Kick
• Lead Leg Kicks
• Skipping Kicks
• Lateral Movement
• Dodge-and-Counter
• Head Movement
• Proper Guard (hands up instead of chambered at your side)
• WT Clinch techniques, to include entry, hand-clearing, defense, jamming, and pushing off
• Joint Locks
• Throws
• Sweeps
• Hook Punches
• Jabs
• Breakfalls
• Rolls

I haven't trained ITF, ATA, MDK, or any of the others, but I'd be willing to bet that they also have a lot of techniques and concepts that aren't covered in the forms or patterns. Have you even trained Taekwondo? If so, did you do anything other than forms? I'm willing to bet the answer is "no" for at least one of those.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I don't ever remember telling a parent I thought their kid had ADHD since that is not my job..

I never ask or tell in this way. The question goes something like this "X seems to have paying attention, are there any similar comments from school teachers? "

 

[dvcochran]

I never ask or tell in this way. The question goes something like this "X seems to have paying attention, are there any similar comments from school teachers? "

Yeah, that moment can get rather delicate. Building a rational trail the parent can follow really helps I think.
This is a great point about performance testing. It reveals so many things in any person if you are categorically looking for them and have an idea of what the results may mean. We will not test a kid without an adult or guardian present. Our testing forms are akin to chart data with tallied results. Not with everyone but I will talk to some parents using the testing form as a visual to discuss certain areas and what I think they can do to help. I also try to discuss testing during the interview and weight it accordingly.
Too much of society views pressure as a bad thing. I just see it as a measurement. Use is wisely/fairly and it is a great information tool. Use it poorly and it can be quite destructive.

 

[skribs]

I never ask or tell in this way. The question goes something like this "X seems to have paying attention, are there any similar comments from school teachers? "

Most of the parents I have already know their kids issues before they bring them in.