PPCT, What is it?

[sgtmac_46]

So you didn't learn the punches, heel palms, kicks or knees? They have also just recently added elbow strikes as well. Depending on the state, there are also neck restraints taught. When taught properly, you have the lead straight and rear straight punch. You hook punches are done using forearm strikes to the side of the neck.

Just curious, because I see alot of people not teach the whole system, such as punching/palming to the face, even though that is in the system. In the end, all that is really taught is grabbing the bad guy and getting him to comply with pressure points, even though that should only be used in low level force situations.

Everything has been added to the system now, because much of what they originally added to the system failed against resisting subjects.

As I said, there's much better out there, imho..........but it stands as a moderately useful basic training tool for law enforcement officers.

 

[sgtmac_46]

You've got to remember what the point of DT training is, especially today: give the officer enough skills to hopefully survive while not creating liability nightmares for the risk management folks and brass. And it's less and less common for an officer to have any real experience coming in, either. (That may be changing... one "perk" of wartime.) I had multiple people in my academy class 10 years ago who'd NEVER been hit in their life. And they've got to squeeze in the H2H skills on top of all the other stuff that falls under "DT" like building searches, cuffing techniques... Oh, and they've got to make all that happen along with all the other mandatory crap in the academy, too.

That's what DT training is from the perspective of upper management that doesn't actually have to apply the system........and that's part of the problem, and why PPCT has been so successful, by marketing itself to upper management.

You're exactly right about the problem of taking folks who have never been hit before in their life, and expecting them to do a job where they are expecting, under some circumstances, to force physically combative people to comply.

 

[Skpotamus]

I help teach my local sheriff depts defensive tactics program. My instructor is their training officer. I've actually met Siddle and some of the other top people in PPCT.

My thoughts:
The tactical handcuffing section is a complete and utter joke. If you have a subject that is that compliant, just hand them the cuffs and have them cuff themselves.

The PP control section is the biggest portion of the system, and it's almost all pain compliance. Someone who's been drinking, on drugs, or having a big adrenaline rush has a high resistance to those types of techniques. Plus, a large number of people they simply don't work on. Essentially, it's for people who are passively resisting, like holding onto cell bars, refusing to stand up, etc. Way too much of the system is focused on dealing with people not actively attacking the officer.

As time has gone on, they've changed some things to the point of stupidity. Example: They used to have a thrust front kick to the stomach in the system for when the subject is coming forward. They found out that a lot of officers missed and hit subjects in the groin (deadly force in this system), so they changed the front thrust kick to the ankle of the subject. Meaning that even if it does work and it off balances the subject, they fall forward into the officer creating a grappling situation.

The shoulder pin restraint they use is done incredibly loose and with a grip that can actually break your own fingers. (It's an arm triangle choke for those of you with BJJ experience, kata-gatame for those with a judo background). They interlace the fingers and use the bony part of the wrist against the neck instead of the bicep, making it a very loose choke instead of the standard BJJ/Judo way of applying it.

Hitting a subject in the head, groin, or throat is deadly force, but the officer being hit in those areas is not necessarily deadly force. It is incredibly restrictive to officers and basically the system was designed to keep law enforcement agencies out of lawsuits instead of giving officers effective tactics for dealing with real situations.

My thoughts = YMMV.

Indiana just dropped PPCT as their defensive tactics program and went with something Paul Whitesell (one of the PPCT head guys supposedly) developed. They found that far too much of the PPCT system didn't work in actual cases and it was far too restrictive on the officers. So far, the Whitesell system seems a lot better for the officers, a lot less restrictive on what they can do with the focus on officer safety instead of lawsuit proofing the dept.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I help teach my local sheriff depts defensive tactics program. My instructor is their training officer. I've actually met Siddle and some of the other top people in PPCT.

My thoughts:
The tactical handcuffing section is a complete and utter joke. If you have a subject that is that compliant, just hand them the cuffs and have them cuff themselves.

The PP control section is the biggest portion of the system, and it's almost all pain compliance. Someone who's been drinking, on drugs, or having a big adrenaline rush has a high resistance to those types of techniques. Plus, a large number of people they simply don't work on. Essentially, it's for people who are passively resisting, like holding onto cell bars, refusing to stand up, etc. Way too much of the system is focused on dealing with people not actively attacking the officer.

Exactly!

As time has gone on, they've changed some things to the point of stupidity. Example: They used to have a thrust front kick to the stomach in the system for when the subject is coming forward. They found out that a lot of officers missed and hit subjects in the groin (deadly force in this system), so they changed the front thrust kick to the ankle of the subject. Meaning that even if it does work and it off balances the subject, they fall forward into the officer creating a grappling situation.

Yeah, silly stuff like that.......I mean a kick to the groin IS a relatively high level of force, but lethal? That's kind of silly.

The shoulder pin restraint they use is done incredibly loose and with a grip that can actually break your own fingers. (It's an arm triangle choke for those of you with BJJ experience, kata-gatame for those with a judo background). They interlace the fingers and use the bony part of the wrist against the neck instead of the bicep, making it a very loose choke instead of the standard BJJ/Judo way of applying it.

They formerly referred to that as the UVNR, or 'Unilateral Vascular Neck Restraint', but then had to change that name for reasons of trademark, likely because it was too close to the FAR SUPERIOR LVNR or 'Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint' that was developed by Jim Lindell in 1970 at Kansas City, PD.

Hitting a subject in the head, groin, or throat is deadly force, but the officer being hit in those areas is not necessarily deadly force. It is incredibly restrictive to officers and basically the system was designed to keep law enforcement agencies out of lawsuits instead of giving officers effective tactics for dealing with real situations.

Which is just the opposite of what the courts actually concluded in several federal court cases, i.e. what the SUBJECT does is 'Lethal Force' if it likely to cause DEATH or Serious Physical Injury.......and what an Officer does is only lethal force if it's likely to cause DEATH.....period. But, again, that's indicative of PPCT's over emphasis on the appearance of liability to the detriment of the officers themselves.

My thoughts = YMMV.

Indiana just dropped PPCT as their defensive tactics program and went with something Paul Whitesell (one of the PPCT head guys supposedly) developed. They found that far too much of the PPCT system didn't work in actual cases and it was far too restrictive on the officers. So far, the Whitesell system seems a lot better for the officers, a lot less restrictive on what they can do with the focus on officer safety instead of lawsuit proofing the dept.

The big problem i've found with PPCT.......is that it's main marketing is to administrators and city leaders with little or no experience actually have to use force, with too much emphasis on preventing suspect injury, with far less regard for officer injury........and their perspective on backing up officers use of force that I have gotten from PPCT instructors is.....

'If you do PPCT right, no one will get hurt, and there will be ZERO liability, and if there is we will back you......but if someone did get hurt, though, you did PPCT wrong!'

The result of that overemphasis on liability and pleasing an administrator (WHO DOESN'T HAVE THE ACTUALLY USE IT!) is that the techniques are overly weighed toward what looks good to an administrator (WHO DOESN'T HAVE TO ACTUALLY USE IT!) and the insurance companies for Law Enforcement Agencies..........meaning the techniques look dynamite on paper and in training, but often FAIL when the proverbial feces strike the oscillator.

That's been my experience, and I have complete respect for instructors who like the PPCT program........BUT, since I actually am the Lieutenant and training officer for MY department, PPCT is not part of the curriculum that I teach my officers.

 

[Hudson69]

Absolutely!

One thing I must say that was good for everyone who had never experienced being hit in the academy that I went through was that everyone had to box in a match with someone. Man or woman it did not matter. Everyone got hit. I think that was a plus and yet still of course they needed a lot more training after the academy.

Over a decade ago, when I went through my first academy shrug, it was FBI Arrest Control. The big thing we did was get sized up and forced to box for 3-5 minutes (felt longer at the time) with someone. Getting punched really put self defense into perspective for you.

Something someone else mentioned was the lack of training after after the academy. Not many people do this I believe, even when it is a more aggressive system like Krav or Spear.

But I do believe that 99% of the Police DT courses authorized out there by whatever board oversees that state are solid (if basic) courses and their primary weaknesses lie in Officer/Deputy/Agent/etc... not practicing and their agencies not requiring/allowing/demanding recertification training.

I used to gripe about FBI but looking at it from a distance and what it covers I see that it covers the generic basics of self defense the only thing I would do (what I feel most instructors do) is tailor it to the situation.

Feeb's dont get into a whole lot of fights, cops do. I don't know how many LEO's handcuff everytime the academy way (besides double locking, always, always double lock) so once the fundamentals are down get back into spending time on the combat skills portion of the training and not blowing your time on precision handcuff placement and shuffle stepping in at a 45 degree angle and blah, blah, blah............

I will get off my soap box now (I am looking forward to becoming a PPCT Instructor).

 

[sgtmac_46]

You're right about the fact that most cops don't train. Reason number one is that good training, hard training, risks the ego....and many cops would prefer the illusion that they are prepared than the reality of training to failure.

That also happens with cops who become defensive tactics instructors......one of the reasons that many DT instructors get so locked in to their system du jour (aside from proprietary considerations) is that to expand their selves beyond a system they feel they understand and have somewhat mastered is to risk having to start over again and being seen not as a subject master expert, but as a student.

A simple understanding of simply not letting my ego get in the way of hard training is something I made a conscious effort to do. That's why I train with all kinds of folks so long as they are better than me. If they can't beat me at the game we're playing, then what's the point of me training with them?

The old saying applies quite well........in the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the experts there are few. One should always strive to be a student.

 

[Bikewr]

We just had our "refresher" course on the baton and the pepper spray. We are now apparently using techniques recommended by ASP (we use the ASP baton) which now include strikes that were forbidden under the PPCT system I went through some 12 years ago.
We had a considerable discussion on all this. It seems, as some of the posts in this thread indicate, that many of the notions of PPCT have fallen into disrepute.
I took the instructor's course, and I had my questions back then....

So far as I can tell, we're in a state of flux. I've been in police work long enough (40 years...) to have seen many "systems" come and go.
I recall complex baton-oriented systems that looked good in the gym but were quite useless on the street....Too complex.
So I was initially in favor of Siddle's theories. However, much seemed likely to be ineffective.
I too was not thrilled with the overly-involved handcuffing drill. Compliant subjects you just cuff. Non-compliant subjects need to be wrestled with anyway...
I have been drafted to help with formulating some new training programs; I'll have to see just what policy will allow.
I have rather extensive martial-arts experience and was involved in Filipino martial arts as well for years.
I was always terrified to use these techniques on the street...

We'll see what comes of all this.

 

[sgtmac_46]

We just had our "refresher" course on the baton and the pepper spray. We are now apparently using techniques recommended by ASP (we use the ASP baton) which now include strikes that were forbidden under the PPCT system I went through some 12 years ago.
We had a considerable discussion on all this. It seems, as some of the posts in this thread indicate, that many of the notions of PPCT have fallen into disrepute.
I took the instructor's course, and I had my questions back then....

So far as I can tell, we're in a state of flux. I've been in police work long enough (40 years...) to have seen many "systems" come and go.
I recall complex baton-oriented systems that looked good in the gym but were quite useless on the street....Too complex.
So I was initially in favor of Siddle's theories. However, much seemed likely to be ineffective.
I too was not thrilled with the overly-involved handcuffing drill. Compliant subjects you just cuff. Non-compliant subjects need to be wrestled with anyway...
I have been drafted to help with formulating some new training programs; I'll have to see just what policy will allow.
I have rather extensive martial-arts experience and was involved in Filipino martial arts as well for years.
I was always terrified to use these techniques on the street...

We'll see what comes of all this.

Your comments illustrate an excellent point about PPCT (and some other systems).

Most of the cops over the years that i've heard who were introduced to the PPCT who were excited about it were relatively new cops with little force experience. Those of us who had enough exposure to actual violence tended to be very skeptical of how many of the techniques and concepts would play out in reality, for good reason.

Many of the same officers who were formerly excited about having learned it, came back jaded the first time they vapolocked trying to apply one of the techniques and it failed, resulted in a prolonged struggle and an inability to transition to more effective techniques.

 

[jks9199]

Got someone asking about this; bumping this thread to help them.

 

[punisher73]

Your comments illustrate an excellent point about PPCT (and some other systems).

Most of the cops over the years that i've heard who were introduced to the PPCT who were excited about it were relatively new cops with little force experience. Those of us who had enough exposure to actual violence tended to be very skeptical of how many of the techniques and concepts would play out in reality, for good reason.

Many of the same officers who were formerly excited about having learned it, came back jaded the first time they vapolocked trying to apply one of the techniques and it failed, resulted in a prolonged struggle and an inability to transition to more effective techniques.

I will quote this, but not directed exactly at Sgt. Mac since I don't know if he participates still here or not. But this is one of the complaints that I see leveled at PPCT all the time and when pressed for answers, all I get are responses that show the officer in question doesn't know the system and tried to misapply it.

PPCT uses pressure points to control LOW LEVELS OF FORCE. When someone is actively resisting, you are justified and taught to strike. What are these techniques that failed and resulted in a "prolonged struggle and an inability to transition to more effective techniques"? MMA fighers seem to rely a lot on the old 1-2 punch combo and a roundhouse kick to the thigh. Why is it not effective in PPCT? The problem is that people don't actually READ the manual and apply what it says to the situations or misapply the techniques without doing the appropriate entry to it ( for example; hard striking to soften them up for the takedown/joint lock)

 

[jks9199]

I will quote this, but not directed exactly at Sgt. Mac since I don't know if he participates still here or not. But this is one of the complaints that I see leveled at PPCT all the time and when pressed for answers, all I get are responses that show the officer in question doesn't know the system and tried to misapply it.

PPCT uses pressure points to control LOW LEVELS OF FORCE. When someone is actively resisting, you are justified and taught to strike. What are these techniques that failed and resulted in a "prolonged struggle and an inability to transition to more effective techniques"? MMA fighers seem to rely a lot on the old 1-2 punch combo and a roundhouse kick to the thigh. Why is it not effective in PPCT? The problem is that people don't actually READ the manual and apply what it says to the situations or misapply the techniques without doing the appropriate entry to it ( for example; hard striking to soften them up for the takedown/joint lock)

That's actually something I've seen happen with a lot of DT packages. Many get hyped for handling one level, and people run into trouble applying the tools at the wrong force level. I'm seeing it a lot right now with Tasers. For example, we responded to a report of a guy stabbing people -- and someone who should know better had their Taser out, not their gun. Now, in coordination with others, so that we know that officer is prepared with less-lethal if the situation is appropriate, that's cool -- but in a dynamic situation, without coordinating the force options? Nope.

I don't know enough about PPCT to have a firm opinion one way or the other. Looks like one danger is people only seeing one part of the program, and judging the whole by it.

 

[Big Don]

This sounds like it would be a fun thing to learn in a group. Any ideas where I could find an instructor here in Fresno?

 

[punisher73]

This sounds like it would be a fun thing to learn in a group. Any ideas where I could find an instructor here in Fresno?

I don't, you might be able to contact the corporation and find out. I think they also do a civilian model geared towards rape prevention, but it's been awhile since I have looked through their programs offered.

 

[Balrog]

Pressure points work best on compliant 12 year old children...........or if you want to make a drunk mad enough to really fight.

ROTFLMAO! I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.