Power vs Speed are they combined

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Dave Simmons

Zoran hit on the head. More or less as a person ages certain dynamics change for the the practitioners as one grows older!

The point I wanted to explore is the reaction time to power expanded indicates speed overall. Plus the knowledge of "cutting down" wasted movement between strikes is the essence of Kenpo. If you will minimize reaction time based on targets revealed. What do you say, please spare us the theory, I want the practice...

Let's get down to the warrior level!

Dave Simmons

So, from what i'am hearing; the essense of all kenpo is cutting down wasted movement between strikes? Or are you saying that this is the essence of american kenpo? I think that the physics behind the punches and strike can be described in several different ways and also tested! The simple test that i suggested; i teach to my class several times per month to improve there speed striking skills. The students are able to see there improvements and answer their own questions about striking combinations and variations of. This concept is not new anyway. The shaolin monks used this simple knowledge of the gravity ride to use locomotive force in striking with precision and speed to different areas of the upper body using various fist strike combinations! This is one of the basic elements of gong fu mastery of striking Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Dave Simmons]

The essence for me is efficient logical strikes to resolve any situation. The factor I have noticed as one gets older is being less concerned with wasted motion. I am not referring to students learning technique in class. What I am referring to is the time relation between strikes and full integration of body dynamics i.e. utilizing pivots with shoulder and hip alignment. Mostly seen in experienced practitioners. Just my opinion!

Regards,

Dave Simmons

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Dave Simmons

The essence for me is efficient logical strikes to resolve any situation. The factor I have noticed as one gets older is being less concerned with wasted motion. I am not referring to students learning technique in class. What I am referring to is the time relation between strikes and full integration of body dynamics i.e. utilizing pivots with shoulder and hip alignment. Mostly seen in experienced practitioners. Just my opinion!

Regards,

Dave Simmons

Thanks! I see your point here! Heck, i'am no spring chicken myself! At 45 i'am healthy and fit yet, i can jump and kick leap and have no major problems, other than soreness and femur flexon tightness at times! But my splits look good and relaxed. Sincerely, in Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Rob_Broad]

When it all boils down speed and power are relative to what you want to accomplish. You only have to be fast enough to stop the atack, and with enough power to dissuade him from wanting to do anymore. Overkill or overskill in the eyes of the law youare still in trouble for excessive bodily harm to your attacker.

 

[Kirk]

One could use the argument that a crocodile isn't all that fast,
yet still has the ability to crush you, with pure strength.

 

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Kirk

One could use the argument that a crocodile isn't all that fast,
yet still has the ability to crush you, with pure strength.

They make ugly, yet effective guard dogs!

 

[Goldendragon7]

Whadda get when you cross a crocodile and a Pitbull?
.
.
.
.
.
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.
.
A Crockabull



:rofl:

 

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Whadda get when you cross a crocodile and a Pitbull?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
A Crockabull



:rofl:

Thankfully a sense of humor is not a belt requirement or we would all still be white belts.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Are you saying I don't have a great sense of humor Mr. Rob?!!!!

 

[parkerkarate]

This is what I have been trying to figure out for the past couple years since I was tested for my 2nd black. I have found the fater I move

1. The more balance I need
2. More power comes with it

But with power comes responsibility, you can not teach and then speed through something really fast because your student will have no clue what the heck you just did. Trust me on that one. BUt you also need good basics, you can't be speeding through something and then fall on your but because you didn't have any balance. To create power focus on the priniples of Kenpo, such as Marriage of Gravity and Borrowed Force. Think of some techniques like you are "blitzing" your opponent. THere are going to be some techniques that you will have to slow down with grappling and manuvering the opponent. Just some stuff for you to think about.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...have y'll watched a croc grab, say, a small dog?

 

[parkerkarate]

Ok that would be random, but I understand what you are talking about.

 

[Les]

Have all of you considered the elements of Speed?

Perceptual * Mental * Physical

A response is accomplished with a combination of the 3 elements. One must perceive then process mentally which moves the physical.

Then, of course, you need to consider the different types of speed within each of these elements.

 

[Les]

In all these posts, no-one has mentioned a third and vital ingredient.

ACCURACY

Without accuracy, both fast and powerful strikes are going to be pretty much 'Lucky' shots.

Someone earlier mentioned timing, which is also a very important factor, but no-one seem to want to explore that avenue either.

Les

 

[Kenpomachine]

I agree with you Les.

What I can't understand is the statement that you can have power without speed. Well, or a good amount of mass behind it (your weight measure in the farmacy). It's not speed throughout the trajectory of the strike, but at the moment of impact, and this is were the back up mass, marriage of gravity and instantaneous acceleration comes into play. And to get the most from these effects you have to work through your body mechanics and body allinement (sp?). That is also why some, say slow punches can be so devastating, because of this final acceleration. And you can also get this acceleration by relaxing your muscles until the impact...

And I would add that timing is the ingredient that helps the both of them working smoothly to get the optimun effect (optimun meaning the desired effect, whatever that is in a situation) with maximun accuracy and effectivity.

It all derives from the old physics learnt in school
F = m · a (mass · acceleration)
a = s / t (speed / time) If memory doesn't fail me...

 

[WhiteTiger]

We talk about Force=mxa, but this expression describes the "theoretical" force of the punch, if it could be measured at the knuckles. What should concern us as martial artists is the effective transfer of force from our punch into the target. Speed and "effective mass" are certainly primary components of this, however, maximizing the energy that is transfered into the target is much more complex. Surface area, angle of incidence, fluid dynamics, all play into transfer of force. Remember the human body is essentially a bag of water, and energy in transfered into a fluid much differently than into a solid object. This is where depth of target, breath control, muscle control, recoil of the weapon, and form play a major part in the energy transfer.

It is true that speed and mass are irrefutablly linked to gererating force in a punch but these other variables are also key components of a powerful punch.

 

[Kenpomachine]

What should concern us as martial artists is the effective transfer of force from our punch into the target.

This also has to do with the law of the conservation of the quantity of movement: m11 x v11 + m21 x v21 = m12 x v12 + m22 x v22 In which the first number represents a body and the second a moment. It's the same law that applies to billiard balls, i.e.

however, maximizing the energy that is transfered into the target is much more complex. Surface area, angle of incidence, fluid dynamics, all play into transfer of force

Well, I never thought about fluid dynamics as applied to kenpo, and I guess I don't remember much about it either :S And we're pro'lly forgetting more of the variables that come into play when hitting. We're lucky we don't have to think about these theories everytime we strike or we'd never hit anything :rofl: (which doesn't mean you don't have to take them into account subconsciously, that's what training is for, isn't it)