Power/Speed: personal attributes or dictated by technique of the art?

[Drose427]

I'm sure we've all heard the debate "Muay Thai is the hardest kicking style" or "TKD has the speed!"

But that hasnt been my experience at all. I've trained with Muay Thai guys who learned from an Kru (not a kickboxing coach making claims, but thats a whole separate issue) who dont kick as hard as my instructors. I've also found Muay Thai guys who can kick harder.

To me, these are completely decided by the person and how much work they put in, not the technique.

What do you guys think? Whats been your experiences with various attributes of different styles doing the same kicks? With how much of a big deal cross training or working outside of ones style has become, why do you think people still attribute these things to Arts instead of fighters?

Came up talking to some MMA friends and got curious what people thought here

 

[Touch Of Death]

Bad technique can mean you aren't aligned, or are using only portions or quadrants of your body weight behind a tech. Get the technique started before you add heart. Trust me on this.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Power and speed are affected both by innate ability and training. Good technique will result in improvement in power and speed. But there is a "baseline" that is inherent in the person which will vary.

 

[Drose427]

Power and speed are affected both by innate ability and training. Good technique will result in improvement in power and speed. But there is a "baseline" that is inherent in the person which will vary.

By good technique do you mean Proper technique as dictated by ones style, or as "This style technique is better than that styles for power/speed?"

 

[Dirty Dog]

By good technique do you mean Proper technique as dictated by ones style, or as "This style technique is better than that styles for power/speed?"

I mean proper technique as suggested by your art and further tweaked to fit ones own personal idiosyncrasies.
As I've said before, unless you're studying a Koryu art where perfect replication is the goal, techniques can and should be modified slightly. The typical example I give is the way I do a right back stance. It's not exactly the way the KKW or any other TKD org models it, simply because I only have one eye, and if I did it "right", I wouldn't be able to see my opponent properly

 

[drop bear]

Technically it is a compromise. Jump on one of those punching machines and punch like a boxer. You wont get the results you would if you punched like you were throwing a ball.

So some styles throw harder than others some faster. It depends on what they are trying to achieve.

 

[Jenna]

With how much of a big deal cross training or working outside of ones style has become, why do you think people still attribute these things to Arts instead of fighters?

The MA system surely underpins not just one technique in isolation and but several techniques that coherently flow together no?? and this in turn facilitates both the speed and the power, no?

..or if this is not so and if the technique or the art were - as you are wondering - LESS important than the artist does this not imply it would be possible to have a master martial artist without ANY coherent system at all behind them?? Jx

 

[ShotoNoob]

By good technique do you mean Proper technique as dictated by ones style, or as "This style technique is better than that styles for power/speed?"

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If you look at the traditional karate styles, do yo see a difference in power generation that's significant? Let's include your TSD-TKD for discussion sake, please.... IOW, what do you think about the power generation as developed by the technique in your style compared to say, Shotokan karate?
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IMO, you've got the credentials to opine on this for us karateka.....

 

[Drose427]

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If you look at the traditional karate styles, do yo see a difference in power generation that's significant? Let's include your TSD-TKD for discussion sake, please.... IOW, what do you think about the power generation as developed by the technique in your style compared to say, Shotokan karate?
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IMO, you've got the credentials to opine on this for us karateka.....

I was pretty clear that in my experience, a styles specific way of doing a technique isn't an issue. The power is generated by the a combination of a person's physical strength, speed, and proper technique with their style.

to answer your question, the technique developed by my style as opposed to shotokan is irrelevant.

I've sparred enough folks from diverse styles to feel there isn't some style baseline for these attributes

 

[ShotoNoob]

I was pretty clear that in my experience, a styles specific way of doing a technique isn't an issue. The power is generated by the a combination of a person's physical strength, speed, and proper technique with their style.

to answer your question, the technique developed by my style as opposed to shotokan is irrelevant.

I've sparred enough folks from diverse styles to feel there isn't some style baseline for these attributes

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I wouldn't go so far as to say, "irrelevant." Otherwise your view matches my view....

BTW: One difference is my view is based on principles that I have observed, not limited to sparring experience.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I was pretty clear that in my experience, a styles specific way of doing a technique isn't an issue. The power is generated by the a combination of a person's physical strength, speed, and proper technique with their style....

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EDIT Above Post: Since you started out as a boxer and practice TSD-TKD, I'm not surprised you rely on the bolded qualifier. As TMA advances, internal strength contributes more & more....

 

[Buka]

It comes down to the person. Pick a style, any style, some people are okay, some are less than okay, some are good, and some......ooooh, baby!

But what the most important aspect of that is - it doesn't take a particular type of person. It can be anyone, just like you, just like me, just like Aunt Tilly.

The human spirit is indomitable.

 

[Shajikfer]

I'm sure we've all heard the debate "Muay Thai is the hardest kicking style" or "TKD has the speed!"

But that hasnt been my experience at all. I've trained with Muay Thai guys who learned from an Kru (not a kickboxing coach making claims, but thats a whole separate issue) who dont kick as hard as my instructors. I've also found Muay Thai guys who can kick harder.

To me, these are completely decided by the person and how much work they put in, not the technique.

What do you guys think? Whats been your experiences with various attributes of different styles doing the same kicks? With how much of a big deal cross training or working outside of ones style has become, why do you think people still attribute these things to Arts instead of fighters?

Came up talking to some MMA friends and got curious what people thought here

Well, I was lucky to have the pleasure to practice both Muai Thai and Tae Kwon Do, so let me give this a swing. I've never found it to be power vs. speed, buth rather power and speed and technique. Generally if a technique is done correctly, and speed is applied, one doesn't have to put much force behind it to do damage.

I have found that if I get my bodies' core involved with a kick a Tae Kwon Do roundhouse and a Muai Thai roundhouse can deliver the same amount of force. That being said, the techniques do slightly different things. A muai Thai roundhouse tends to go through the target, whereas a Tae Kwon Do kick aims to deliver the strike's force into the target.

An exercise I found very helpful comes from silat, where one places their leg on a hard object, such as a steel poll or tree and then pushes off the target. When you apply that technique to any kick I have found it much stronger in terms of applying force.

My experience with Shotokan was to raise the knee then horizontally kick, kind of like a right angle instead of the 45 degree angle of TKD. I found the kicks to not deliver as much force as the TKD or Muai Thai roundhouses, and I suppose that's why the kick in shotokan was called a round-kick when we referred to it in English. The TKD kick, to me, seems to act like a lever, while the Muai Thai roundhouse acts like a swing or sling.

When I do the kicks, such as with TKD I pretend I have a ball on the top of my foot and am putting it into or across their body. When doing the muai thai roundhouse I want to keep that ball on the top of my foot instead of putting it in their body, and carry it all the way through back to the ground. I have found this visualization helps make the intention of my technique more deliberate.

I think where some confusion occurs is that its easy with the TKD kick to aim and hit the surface, instead of aiming past and through it, whereas the mechanics of the Muai Thai kick don't give you an option- you tend to always go through the target as a part of it.

It's kind of like the difference between breaking a board and a one inch cinderblock- the latter you aim through, the former you tend to aim for the surface to deliver a shock to break it.

I hope this helps, it's what makes sense to me, but I can always be wrong.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

different styles doing the same kicks?

I think it's the style issue. But if you have cross trained, it will become your personal issue - which style method that you want to apply at particular moment.

If you want to generate

- power, you will need to let your body to push/pull your limbs.
- speed, you will need to let your limbs to drag your body.

We can compare the roundhouse kick between the MT and TKD, In

- MT, you let your body to "pull" your leg like a whip. Since every kick will require full body rotation, after you have thrown the 1st kick, you need to let your body to rotate back so you can throw the 2nd kick.
- TKD, you 1st point your knee at your opponent while bending your knee, you then straight your knee and kick your leg out. Since your knee is already pointing at your opponent, after you have thrown the 1st kick, you can throw the 2nd kick without moving your body.

To say that MT roundhouse kick is more powerful and TKD's roundhouse kick is faster is simply because MT uses "power generation" approach and TKD uses "speed generation" approach. It's style issue and not personal issue.

We all know that when you throw a punch, you will need to "put your body behind it". But when you see a mosquito flies in front of you, you try to use both hands to kill it, you will find out that your hands is moving before your body and your limb is dragging your body. The reason that you will do that is for "speed".

 

[ShotoNoob]

The MA system surely underpins not just one technique in isolation and but several techniques that coherently flow together no?? and this in turn facilitates both the speed and the power, no?

..or if this is not so and if the technique or the art were - as you are wondering - LESS important than the artist does this not imply it would be possible to have a master martial artist without ANY coherent system at all behind them?? Jx

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I look at the way I can understand it. The whole is more than the sum of the parts. There are as other posters are commenting, different parts, design to those parts, or ways of doing the parts amoung different MA styles....
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I like how you denote the term Master....

 

[ShotoNoob]

dup

 

[Orange Lightning]

I'm sure we've all heard the debate "Muay Thai is the hardest kicking style" or "TKD has the speed!"

But that hasnt been my experience at all. I've trained with Muay Thai guys who learned from an Kru (not a kickboxing coach making claims, but thats a whole separate issue) who dont kick as hard as my instructors. I've also found Muay Thai guys who can kick harder.

To me, these are completely decided by the person and how much work they put in, not the technique.

What do you guys think? Whats been your experiences with various attributes of different styles doing the same kicks? With how much of a big deal cross training or working outside of ones style has become, why do you think people still attribute these things to Arts instead of fighters?

Came up talking to some MMA friends and got curious what people thought here

Simply put, I think it's both. But this is how I think of it. This is probably the 2nd or 3rd time I've used algebra since I've learned it. xD
Every technique is a like a mathematical constant. If it's done the same exact way, it will generate exactly the same amount of force in the same way for everyone. Let's call this technique "10".
However, even done in precisely the same way, you can add your own variables. How you throw the technique can change the power or speed of the technique. This is x.

10x

Each person is different and conditions their body differently. Differences in strength and the hardness of the weapon used (a well conditioned shin vs a regular one) will change the amount of force you can choose to put in the target. Let's call that y.

10x+y = The speed and power of your technique.

The technique, 10, will be the same for everyone. Differences in application and ability will change the outcome. Not so flexible? Make it a 9. Using your foot instead of your shin? Make it a 12. Whatever you want or need it to be. That 9, 10, or 12 will still work the same for everyone. A thai kick can be thrown faster or harder using different bio mechanics (difference between 9 and 12) or strength usage just as anything can (that's our x).The 10 itself will generate the same force for everyone, but each person has an x and y to change the outcome.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Consider, a counter balanced kick will have less power than a normal kick.

 

[Blindside]

Consider, a counter balanced kick will have less power than a normal kick.

So a counter-balanced side kick thrown at waist height has less power than a sidekick thrown with a perfectly upright posture?

Maybe for you, not for me.

 

[Touch Of Death]

So a counter-balanced side kick thrown at waist height has less power than a sidekick thrown with a perfectly upright posture?

Maybe for you, not for me.

The idea is that you have a running start like when Bruce Lee was fighting in the alley on "Return Of the Dragon"; so... Oh hell yes.