Power generation in VT

[guy b.]

How do you train power generation in VT? I mean not to dwell on pole in this thread as it has already been discussed. Assuming pole and associated drills as an essential part, how do you train as an adjunct to pole?

From another thread, it has been noted that Hakka arts have the famous fou chum tun tou formula, trained via sanchin style forms and grinding arm drills.

Where in the forms does VT train power generation in your line? Which drills are essential for this?

Please discuss

 

[wckf92]

How do you train power generation in VT? I mean not to dwell on pole in this thread as it has already been discussed. Assuming pole and associated drills as an essential part, how do you train as an adjunct to pole?

From another thread, it has been noted that Hakka arts have the famous fou chum tun tou formula, trained via sanchin style forms and grinding arm drills.

Where in the forms does VT train power generation in your line? Which drills are essential for this?

Please discuss

Guy, your post is really two different topics IMO.
You mention "grinding arm drills"...which IME is conditioning related...not power generation.

Also, power generation (exercises/drills, etc) is sometimes a closely held topic, per lineage or kung fu family. More and more have come out from the veils over the years, since the onslaught of the internet, youtube, blogs, etc etc.

1st Form is the seed for power generation. From there, it grows from a 'little idea' into many... There are power generation and/or conditioning exercises and routines for most of WC (from individual hands, to MYJ, to Pole, Knives, legs/kicking, etc). Each component of the system has specific power and/or conditioning enhancing drills and exercises which, if properly learned and trained will greatly amplify ones WC.
Just my .02 dude...

 

[guy b.]

Guy, your post is really two different topics IMO.
You mention "grinding arm drills"...which IME is conditioning related...not power generation.

Also, power generation (exercises/drills, etc) is sometimes a closely held topic, per lineage or kung fu family. More and more have come out from the veils over the years, since the onslaught of the internet, youtube, blogs, etc etc.

1st Form is the seed for power generation. From there, it grows from a 'little idea' into many... There are power generation and/or conditioning exercises and routines for most of WC (from individual hands, to MYJ, to Pole, Knives, legs/kicking, etc). Each component of the system has specific power and/or conditioning enhancing drills and exercises which, if properly learned and trained will greatly amplify ones WC.
Just my .02 dude...

Grinding arms in Hakka systems is a punching structure, punching musculature, punching power drill. Does it have an analogue in wing chun?

 

[guy b.]

1st Form is the seed for power generation. From there, it grows from a 'little idea' into many...

What is it about 1st form that has to do with power generation in VT?

There are power generation and/or conditioning exercises and routines for most of WC (from individual hands, to MYJ, to Pole, Knives, legs/kicking, etc). Each component of the system has specific power and/or conditioning enhancing drills and exercises which, if properly learned and trained will greatly amplify ones WC

I would say that MYJ is about coordination, error recovery. Some power development but tangential. Pole obviously. Knives? Not so much in my opinion.

Which drills or exercises are to do with power generation in VT and why?

 

[geezer]

What is it about 1st form that has to do with power generation in VT?



I would say that MYJ is about coordination, error recovery. Some power development but tangential. Pole obviously. Knives? Not so much in my opinion.

Which drills or exercises are to do with power generation in VT and why?

 

[geezer]

Hmmm. You don't see power generation as a process that continues cumulatively throughout your training? One that begins with the structure, alignment, muscle relaxation, joint stretching and snapping extension of the arms in SNT? Then is combined with body movement such as the steps and turns in Chum Kiu? Then with greater emphasis on tendon strength and joint flexion ...including the shoulders and spine in Biu Tze? And, continuously trained and applied through drills, wall bag work and the MYJ, eventually augmented by the pole.... (a later component of training in the lineage I train)... and lastly honed (pardon the pun) in the BCD?

Guess we look at it differently then. I view the training as holistic and integrated. That includes the development of good power. Maybe that's why we call it a "system"?

 

[Vajramusti]

What is it about 1st form that has to do with power generation in VT?



I would say that MYJ is about coordination, error recovery. Some power development but tangential. Pole obviously. Knives? Not so much in my opinion.

Which drills or exercises are to do with power generation in VT and why?

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What did WSL or his protégés say about power development?

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Yeah, I kind of see things the way Geezer described above.

Since you asked how you do it in your line, I will explain from coming from Chu Shong Tin line.

Basically in this line, everything is about force. It's pretty much all we care about (admittedly this focus might come at the expense of practicality and application). But most of us don't care, we love it anyway. We don't tend to look at each of the forms as applications as much as force generation methods.

So pretty much what Geezer said above. SNT is the foundation of force development. We will do "structure tests" on every move in SNT and sometimes from different angles. It basically involves a partner forcefully trying to prevent you from doing a part of the form. You have to find a way to do this in a relaxed way and effortless way. This skills seems to get better and better over the years.

Then in Chum Kiu you are now using the force generation methods and structure from SNT in turning and stepping. First though we would practice turning against resistance. So someone would hold the front of one shoulder and the back of the other and you try to turn against that. This is quite hard. You have to find a way to link your body. We also practice stepping forward with pressure on our chest.

Then there is Bil Jee. One of the main ideas for this is that we are no longer sourcing power from a our axis but now using a single point along our spine to source power. So now we are learning how to twist and bend the spine. And there are other force theories in there also like torque and acceleration etc.

So in general the forms are an extremely logical transition through deeper and deeper force generation concepts.

 

[guy b.]

----------------------------------------------------------------------
What did WSL or his protégés say about power development?

Trying not to drone on about WSL..people seem to dislike intensely. What did Augustine Fong say about it?

 

[Zeny]

Power comes from relaxation, and from practising repeated strikes onto sand or bean bags, every day, for years. It is a painful process. There are no two ways about it (unless you are practising taichi, and that is a different story altogether).

You don't practise power generation by punching air or doing the form. Doing the form against resistance is the same as lifting weights, creates tension in the muscles, and does not assist in relaxation. It is the same as practising punching underwater (which is pretty much useless).

 

[Danny T]

Power is generated by;
1. Muscle expansion and contraction
2. Body Rotation
3. Body displacement.

 

[LFJ]

You don't practise power generation by punching air or doing the form. Doing the form against resistance is the same as lifting weights, creates tension in the muscles, and does not assist in relaxation.

Power is explosive strength. Strength can't be expressed without resistance. We can train to get stronger and that will increase our power output, but how powerful one can be depends on one's genetic potential to explode. That's why olympic weightlifters are vetted and recruited based on their standing vertical jump. If you have an 18 inch vertical, no amount of training will increase it to 36 inches. Teams recruit those who are genetically powerful.

The best way for an athlete to train for general power is to do olympic lifts like the power clean. That in addition to training for power in patterns specific to your discipline yields tremendous results.

For my VT, the forms train our body mechanics for power generation like practicing power cleans with an unloaded bar, but to develop power specific to our discipline we use resistance from things like heavy bags and each other (pun-sau) like training power cleans with a loaded bar.

Like the power clean, a power punch is generated from the ground up with relaxed arms. Once power is transferred from the lower body via the waist to the elbow, the entire body's strength is expressed explosively into the target. Therefore, general strength and power training are both essential.

For whatever reason, some lineages discourage weightlifting. I think that is terrible advice for a power athlete. Someone with a 200kg+ Clean and Jerk who also knows how to punch will take your head clean off your shoulders. Like this guy. That weight comes up fast as hell. That's incredible power (explosive strength). Channeled into a punch = oblivion!

 

[dudewingchun]

Been interested in a few lineages It seems power development is not consistent at all within different lineages.

Chu shong tin is how Wing chun Auckland explained. From what iv seen of Duncan Leung he has lots of supplementary exercises that noone else seems to have like folding a towel and pulling it to develop tendon strength in the shoulder . Chu sau lei develops power through body structure and probably more methods I just havent learnt yet. My first wing chun teacher just expected our hand angles to act like magic and disperse any force that came in contact with our hands.alot of lineages reckon training the pole is enough. Chris chan uses dynamic tension in everything from what I hear which is effective in building strength no doubt but im not sure the amount he does it is wing chun.

Just what I have come across in my research of wing chun.

From my little experience with Chu shong tin.. they produce a ton of power. But iv only trained with one guy.

 

[LFJ]

Good training ideas from Alan Orr:

 

[dudewingchun]

Good training ideas from Alan Orr:

Alan knows how to use his body very very very well. He once showed a short range punch to me through a pad on my chest and it felt so powerful and weird , the power went in and sunk down and my made stomach feel odd.

 

[KPM]

Trying not to drone on about WSL..people seem to dislike intensely. What did Augustine Fong say about it?

People only object when you come across as saying that WSL is the best and obviously others are substandard. You haven't gotten that message yet?

 

[Zeny]

There are two myths in martial arts, both probably caused by hollywood movies.

The first myth is that once you know the techniques you can fight (karate kid). The truth is that it takes years of constant, boring and repetitive practice to be able to generate decent power.

The second myth is that martial artists should have big muscular bodies and practise with weights so as to be able to generate power. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is fascinating how many martial artists (as compared to sportsmen) can be so misguided. If weight training can generate explosive power, why don't tennis or badminton players wrap their arms with weights during practice to improve their game? Food for thought isn't it?

To achieve external power (as opposed to internal power which uses a totally different method), the method is easy but it is hard work. Get a strong bag, fill it with green beans, place the bag onto a solid table or platform, relax your hand and arm and slam your palm down onto the bag. Do it 1,000 times a day (but be careful not to damage your hands). If the bag is not strong enough it may explode within three months. If so replace it with a better bag. After three years of such practise your single palm strike will generate so much power you cannot begin to imagine. And at this point your arm will look no bigger or different than it is three years ago.

True martial artists do not look like martial artists at all. They may look just like any ordinary person on the street.

 

[guy b.]

People only object when you come across as saying that WSL is the best and obviously others are substandard. You haven't gotten that message yet?

Why pretend that I think otherwise? Better just not to mention given reactions. I am curious to learn about other interpretations of the system so happy not to mention WSL method.

 

[guy b.]

Power is explosive strength. Strength can't be expressed without resistance. We can train to get stronger and that will increase our power output, but how powerful one can be depends on one's genetic potential to explode. That's why olympic weightlifters are vetted and recruited based on their standing vertical jump. If you have an 18 inch vertical, no amount of training will increase it to 36 inches. Teams recruit those who are genetically powerful.

The best way for an athlete to train for general power is to do olympic lifts like the power clean. That in addition to training for power in patterns specific to your discipline yields tremendous results.

For my VT, the forms train our body mechanics for power generation like practicing power cleans with an unloaded bar, but to develop power specific to our discipline we use resistance from things like heavy bags and each other (pun-sau) like training power cleans with a loaded bar.

Like the power clean, a power punch is generated from the ground up with relaxed arms. Once power is transferred from the lower body via the waist to the elbow, the entire body's strength is expressed explosively into the target. Therefore, general strength and power training are both essential.

For whatever reason, some lineages discourage weightlifting. I think that is terrible advice for a power athlete. Someone with a 200kg+ Clean and Jerk who also knows how to punch will take your head clean off your shoulders. Like this guy. That weight comes up fast as hell. That's incredible power (explosive strength). Channeled into a punch = oblivion!

Good post. Olympic weightlifting is great for development of raw power. Much better than anything in the system but also fairly non-specific. Wing chun forms contain body mechanics but no resistance. Wing chun drills develop power along specific directions of force along with neural connections required via constant training against resistance.

 

[guy b.]

The second myth is that martial artists should have big muscular bodies and practise with weights so as to be able to generate power. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is fascinating how many martial artists (as compared to sportsmen) can be so misguided.

Training against resitance is the only way to get stronger. Training to express that strength powerfully (i.e. in short time) is the only way to develop power. A lot of power is related to neural connections and muscle recruitment, but if you don't have the strength then you don't have same power potential as someone that does. Complex training with heavy weights and plyos is the best way to go.

If weight training can generate explosive power, why don't tennis or badminton players wrap their arms with weights during practice to improve their game? Food for thought isn't it?

No, that would be stupid in the same way that adding ankle weights while running would be. Tennis players do perform olymic lifts and sport specific power drills.

To achieve external power (as opposed to internal power which uses a totally different method), the method is easy but it is hard work. Get a strong bag, fill it with green beans, place the bag onto a solid table or platform, relax your hand and arm and slam your palm down onto the bag. Do it 1,000 times a day (but be careful not to damage your hands). If the bag is not strong enough it may explode within three months. If so replace it with a better bag. After three years of such practise your single palm strike will generate so much power you cannot begin to imagine. And at this point your arm will look no bigger or different than it is three years ago.

?