Power and economy of motion

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Let me get this strait. You want us to face off to an oponent with our feet shoulder width apart, and our hands at our sides? what is this a gun fight?

When are you ever going to learn how to read? Nowhere does it say to do the exercise with a person. The exercise shows centrifugal force. It shows a place to start- the hips. Not the only place, just a place. Using centrifugal force it but one element that can aid in adjusting the continuity of what was being discussed. I showed one place where it is already used and a technique to start the concept. Now we are on the third time of you misreading and reinterpreting my post to the way you think. Surely at one point you are going to say something worth reading aren't you?

 

[Rick Wade]

Originally posted by Thesemindz
The only problem I've had with this technique is knocking my opponent back and having to chase him down with the succesive strikes.

I'm not sure how this would work for someone significantly smaller than their opponent. The elbow could help them stop the opponent or stun him, but they might need the correct structure of the block to stop the attack.

Maximum protection before maximum penetration?

-Rob

But isn't that the idea. If you are succesful in knocking him or her back you should clear out and not chase them down?

Just a question.

Thanks

 

[parkerkarate]

since I tested for my second degree black belt in '02 I have gone back and started to analyze what I have learned so far. At this same time I started working on my timing and speed. I think of it this way, you have two kind of hit or "shots". A power shot or a stinger, I have figured out which moves in each technique are power shots and which are not. When you go through techniaues the more powerful you want to something the more explosive you have to be. My instructor Mr. Palanzo would always say some people move their body too much while others move it too little. I have figured out the mideum, I do not over extend anything but I do not under-extend, if thats a word. You must work on explosions, and understanding the termonology of Kenpo. Such as Marriage of Gravity and Borrowed Force. Keep those things in the back of you mind when you do techniques, hopefully that will help some.

 

[Thesemindz]

Originally posted by Rick Wade
But isn't that the idea. If you are succesful in knocking him or her back you should clear out and not chase them down?

Just a question.

Thanks

I would generally agree with you. If I knock my opponent so far back that he is out of range, then I probably have a chance to escape. However, I may not be able to escape if my opponent is still willing to do harm to my person. Remember, at this point I have only blocked his attack and hit him once with an elbow to the sternum. My opponent may not have been sufficiently deterred as of this time. If he is still trying to attack, I would rather stay close to him and continue to strike. In this case, if I were to prematurely evacuate I may end up back to squares facing an opponent who gets a second chance to defeat me, when I could have ended it all by just capitalizing on his first mistake.


-Rob

 

[kenpo2dabone]

This weekend we had an impromptu seminar (so to speak) where we analyzed techniques and juiced them up. We learned how to deliver power with the timing. Which then provided speed.

Maybe I am showing my ignorance but in the past I have tried to become faster, thinking faster is more powerful. However it is just the opposite if you work on your timing.

I was amazed.

Can anyone out there offer some insight.

Thanks
Rick

There are really only two ways to add power to a strike. Increase the mass of the weapon or increase the speed of the weapon. Think of dropping a soccer ball on your foot. It is not going to hurt very much. Now think of dropping a soccer ball made out of lead on your foot. Major pain. According to the laws of gravity they will travel at about the same speed when dropped. The lead is going to hurt more because it has more mass. Now imagine someone throwing a bullet at you. O.K. if it hits you in the eye it might hurt a little. Now imagine that same bullet being shot out of a gun. It is going to do damage no matter where it hits you.

It is much more difficult to add mass to our natural weapons then it is to practice speeding them up. When I say speed them up I am not talking about trying to do an entire technique as fast as you can. I mean the speed of each individual strike. Economy of motion will play a role in this but it is not the definition. Economy of motion basically teaches us that there is no need to pull a punch backwards before it goes forwards. Again that is a very basic definition. It is all too common to try and blow through a technique as fast as you can, thinking that you are doing it with more power. This is simply not true. Proper timing will feel like you are adding power but you really are not. You are simply doing the technique that way it was originally intended to be done in the first place. When it comes to practicing I would practice form and timing above trying to add speed. It does you no good to try and strike with speed if you are striking with incorrect form and incorrect anatomical alignment. This is where the saying practice it a thousand times slow before doing it one time fast comes from. I believe this is why you felt like you were hitting with more power than before.

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF

 

[Bill Lear]

I would generally agree with you. If I knock my opponent so far back that he is out of range, then I probably have a chance to escape. However, I may not be able to escape if my opponent is still willing to do harm to my person. Remember, at this point I have only blocked his attack and hit him once with an elbow to the sternum. My opponent may not have been sufficiently deterred as of this time. If he is still trying to attack, I would rather stay close to him and continue to strike. In this case, if I were to prematurely evacuate I may end up back to squares facing an opponent who gets a second chance to defeat me, when I could have ended it all by just capitalizing on his first mistake.


-Rob

This is a good point. I've actually had this happen to me, unfortunately my attacker had to have his jaw wired shut for a little while after he caught up to me for the second round (which I completely realize could have been me if circumstances were different).

:idunno:

 

[Michael Billings]

There are really only two ways to add power to a strike. Increase the mass of the weapon or increase the speed of the weapon. Think of dropping a soccer ball on your foot. It is not going to hurt very much. Now think of dropping a soccer ball made out of lead on your foot. Major pain. According to the laws of gravity they will travel at about the same speed when dropped. The lead is going to hurt more because it has more mass. Now imagine someone throwing a bullet at you. O.K. if it hits you in the eye it might hurt a little. Now imagine that same bullet being shot out of a gun. It is going to do damage no matter where it hits you.

It is much more difficult to add mass to our natural weapons then it is to practice speeding them up. When I say speed them up I am not talking about trying to do an entire technique as fast as you can. I mean the speed of each individual strike. Economy of motion will play a role in this but it is not the definition. Economy of motion basically teaches us that there is no need to pull a punch backwards before it goes forwards. Again that is a very basic definition. It is all too common to try and blow through a technique as fast as you can, thinking that you are doing it with more power. This is simply not true. Proper timing will feel like you are adding power but you really are not. You are simply doing the technique that way it was originally intended to be done in the first place. When it comes to practicing I would practice form and timing above trying to add speed. It does you no good to try and strike with speed if you are striking with incorrect form and incorrect anatomical alignment. This is where the saying practice it a thousand times slow before doing it one time fast comes from. I believe this is why you felt like you were hitting with more power than before.

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF

Excellent post Mike. I like the care with which you crafted this response. Other factors can play in as well, specifically Borrowed Force, either through your disruption, or changing the orbit of your weapon. An example may be Thundering Hammers, instead of chambering up, the hammers may orbit, or follow your outer rim to the target, same distance, no chamber (when coming from a check on the right arm), different path to the target.

Have a good weekend.

-Michael

 

[Kenpomachine]

There are really only two ways to add power to a strike. Increase the mass of the weapon or increase the speed of the weapon.

Agreed

Think of dropping a soccer ball on your foot. It is not going to hurt very much. Now think of dropping a soccer ball made out of lead on your foot. Major pain. According to the laws of gravity they will travel at about the same speed when dropped. The lead is going to hurt more because it has more mass. Now imagine someone throwing a bullet at you. O.K. if it hits you in the eye it might hurt a little. Now imagine that same bullet being shot out of a gun. It is going to do damage no matter where it hits you.

I think you may have confused things a little about this example of soccer balls. For speed to be the same in the drop, mass must be the same, so the regular soccer ball is bigger in volume than a lead ball of the same mass. So it's not actually mass the difference, but the impact surface that comes into play, the smaller the surface, the greater the damage
If you meant a ball of the same volume, then, the lead ball will have a greater mass than the regular one, greater speed at the moment of impact if thrown from the same height, and greater damage. So the lead ball will still cause the greater damage.
Just for clarification

 

[parkerkarate]

Never forget torque or counter torque.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I think you may have confused things a little about this example of soccer balls. For speed to be the same in the drop, mass must be the same, so the regular soccer ball is bigger in volume than a lead ball of the same mass. So it's not actually mass the difference, but the impact surface that comes into play, the smaller the surface, the greater the damage
If you meant a ball of the same volume, then, the lead ball will have a greater mass than the regular one, greater speed at the moment of impact if thrown from the same height, and greater damage. So the lead ball will still cause the greater damage.
Just for clarification

I believe he was referring to the experiments that we all did in high school science with a lead ball and a feather. Put them both in a tube in a state of vacuum. If you drop both the feather and the ball, from the same height, at the same time they will both hit the bottom of the tube at the SAME TIME.

The amount of energy that is produced would be different due to the differences in mass. Just for clarification.

Never forget torque or counter torque.

Is there really such a thing as counter torque? I guess since everyone uses this terminology most will understand what it implies, but that doesn't mean it really exists. Kinda like centrifugal force which has achieved wide usage but doesn't really exist.

 

[Kenpomachine]

No experiments for me in high school, but I guess you're right. Vacuum must have existed in my head when I read his email, geez :s

 

[parkerkarate]

A couple weeks ago someone put a link up about counter tourque. It was very nice. Take Bow of Compulsion for example, coiling up and than exploding with the heal palms. It works trust me.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Is there really such a thing as counter torque?

Good Question!


:uhyeah:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

It seems to me (and granted, it's been aeons since I had physics), that the effect of what wants to be referred to as "counter-torque" would create tangential opposites in complementary or singular planes of activity, cancelling each other out by creating a null difference in the amount of work done, compared to the amount of energy released.

Perhaps a better way of conceptualizing the kenpo concept of counter torque would be to consider the effects of loads placed on contractile tissues prior to the concentric contraction of primary agonists. It's really a light plyometric load placed on muscles that have been placed at "pre-stretch" tension.

Experiment: Sit on a spinning stool and turn at the waist; explode out of that position, and note that your upper body going one way provides a certain set of potentials, as does your lower body turning the other. Each motion, individually, is powered by complementary sets of muscles in the pelvis, torso and back. Some get longer to let it happen, some get shorter to make it happen, and aside from the spin you're putting on the stool by being the external actor, the whole gig has little to do with torque. When all is said and done, you're still on the stool; no actual work (aside form the machinations of the screw mechanism in the stool) has been done, even though energy has been released.

My Q to the forum: doesn't torque have something to do with the creation of tangential centripi-force (not centrifug), to create work? Measured through change? I could be dead nuts wrong on this...have been before, will be again...but I think, mechanically, counter-torque would be any force preventing Torque1 from doing work, or cancelling out the measurable effects of T1.

I expect the acu-definitions to exceed my meager ability to remember what I want to when I want to, so am open to correction/clarification.

Regards,

D.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Good Question!


:uhyeah:

How about counter balance?

 

[Michael Billings]

How about counter balance?

Excellent point TOD. The counter balance is the most obvious thing to me in watching the method of execution Mr. Tatum is demonstrating. It yields a synergystic amount of power because of the borrowed force, body momentum, and timing.

Good Kenpo!!! Not sure about "Counter Torque" and it's actual existance as a principle of physics ... or rather I am sure about it. Mr. Tatum chooses a naming convention for the confluence of forces he creates in that particular techique, it works for me so long as we keep it in the arena of "Kenpo vernacular" and not try to really attribute the power to a principle that physics has not defined. OK, so I am being a little too rigid here. It is still a great smack-down Billy Lear took. Good stuff!

-Michael

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

How about counter balance?

Counter balance actually exists in the realm of physics.

My point was not to assert my knowledge of physics or to try and tout my intellectual understanding of kenpo, but rather to point something out to those who believe that "other" groups are using "pseudo-science" within their flavor of kenpo. These are the same people who use terms like Reverse Marriage of Gravity, Counter-torque, Angle of Incidence (which refers to all angles of impact not just 90's), etc, etc. These terms, with the exception of Angle of Incidence, do not exist within the realm of physics. They have, however, achieved wide spread usage which has lead to a general consensus as to what each specific term implies. This, at least to me, is as much an example of "pseudo-science" as anything else out there in kenpo land. Obviously there are those who add asinine terminology to the art to intentionally befuddle their poor students, but there is some terminology worth learning whether it's real or not.

Despite the absurdity of the term "Reverse Marriage of Gravity" I understand, as I'm sure others do as well, what this term implies. The same goes for counter-torque.

I try my best to stay away from physics conversations, because I'm a firm believer that concepts and equations don't mean jack unless you can actually put that knowledge to work in your fighting art. However, I take issue with people who are just as guilty of indulging in "pseudo-science," lecturing others about how wrong such indulgences can be.

I apologize if this post appears off topic. I do, however, feel that these statements are relevent to this particular subject in light of recent comments.
Again I apologize if this seems severe, that was not my intent.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Power and Economy of Motion are related but separate entities.

Economy of motion creates an illusion of speed. In my experience all of the current seniors have it. They look fast even when their moving in a controlled manner. The lack of wasted motion allows their movement to be fluid, precise and fast enough to do the job. When Mr. Planas has demonstrated on me every strike led into the next strike and he had complete control of the situation. It is always fast enough to do the job. I've had others strike much faster but with wasted motion and it's more like being attacked by a Moth. Rapid ineffective strikes, more of a massage than a beating.

The physicists out there will say that power can only be developed by 2 things, increased mass and increased speed. This is true but forgets the fact that biomechanics is so complicated that these equations are no longer simple. Proper body mechanics is the over simplified way of saying powerful strikes need back up mass. All Human motion involves Mass and torque but some movements emphasise one or the other. We must also consider elasticity, opposing muscle groups and other biomechanical functions in any fuly scientific discussion of movement. Thus I've been struck by people who are moving very fast but because they are not rooted, or they are not moving in a well coordinated manner or they putting on the brakes with their opposing muscle groups I've not felt much power. It is the coordination of speed and backup mass that creates effective power. This makes a Mr. Planas, or Mr. Wedlake or Mr. Tatum so effective. My 120 lb 16 year old son hits me harder that a lot of 200 lb adults. Proper body mechanics works.

As I get older and slower I find that I can use improved economy of motion to look faster and improving body mechanics to hit harder. The miracle of well taught EPAK is not that it makes you super human but that it teaches everyone to use what they have more effectively. Every time I work with my instructor Mr. Hatfield or his instructors Mr. Wedlake and Mr. Planas I am more impressed by this system that allows us to taylor the principles to our own strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks,

Jeff

 

[tumpaiguy]

A great example of power and economy of motion is Bruce Lee's 1 inch punch. Kenpodoc, I liked your explanation of back up mass. It makes a lot of sense.

 

[Touch Of Death]

A great example of power and economy of motion is Bruce Lee's 1 inch punch. Kenpodoc, I liked your explanation of back up mass. It makes a lot of sense.

I disagree, the one inch punch is a great example for launching, but thats about it, the timing and path of your weapons along with lauching is really what economy of motion is all about;so, I here by declare, NOT.
Sean :asian: