Poor Guard (hands lowered while sparring)

[puunui]

just stand there rookie mistake.

rookie mistake or they never learned how to effectively use distance control through stance and steps. I watch people, even supposedly high level people, and they all want to inch into their comfortable and usual sparring distance and throw from there.

 

[tinker1]

rookie mistake or they never learned how to effectively use distance control through stance and steps. I watch people, even supposedly high level people, and they all want to inch into their comfortable and usual sparring distance and throw from there.

Well you can't force someone to learn something, but you can stop promoting them.

 

[wayneshin]

I'll address this from an international point of view considering that local competition athletes are seeking to develop international level skills (improved) as a goal.

This is the main thing: "1. he/she has confidence in his/her reaction time and speed to avoid an attack;"

Elite Taekwondo athletes have body and head movements skills comparable to the best boxers. Very different set of skills, developed in a very different way from point fighting, MMA, and just about every other martial art.

Most people would think if you fight in a boxing ring, you should keep your hands up, but that is not always the case either. Even when you look at the most elite boxers, many times they will fight with that hands way down. When they feel they have superior movement to their opponent, some will even dangle their arms to side, and taunt their opponent. Some of these taunted opponents are no joke either.

A few years ago I was visiting friends in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn NY. They took us over to Gleason's boxing gym where we met Pauli Malignaggi. At that time, Pauli was doing really well. We hung around the gym met a lot of people and watched part of Paulie's workout. Afterward we were all talking, one question I asked Pauli was about his tendency to fight with his hands down he said he was "faster/quicker than they are" and added that even if they do catch him, he is already moving (with the punch) and it's not going to do anything.
He also commented that when a guy realizes he can't hit you and you are tagging him at will, his confidence is destroyed and now you can go in for the kill. It's also a part of psychological warfare.

My personal experience is, martial artist who are critical of an elite Taekwondo fighters tendency to have their hands down are looking at the match from the outside or from their own skill set, as sort of an armchair quarterback and most have never had the chance to fight an elite Taekwondo fighter (or an elite boxer), and in my experience if they do get that chance, they come away saying "wow, I could not even touch that guy, with my hands or my feet."

Now I do see MMA guys fight with their hand down at time, but that is just a huge mistake because the one's I have seen have ZERO body or head movement skills, so as a last line of defense, they should keep their hands up.

Interesting post but doesn't really clarify the situation for me. Just because they CAN leave their hands down doesn't neccessarily mean they SHOULD.

I have trained a number of students who compete at international level in WKF karate. My daughter who won the 2010 WKF World Cup has made the observation a number of times that she normally doesn't block when she fights -which fits in with your observation about footwork. But there may be that one time in the Olympic Gold medal match when your footwork let you down and having that hand there may be the diference between Gold and Silver.

I guess the question then should be, What are the benefits of the low guard?

 

[puunui]

Well you can't force someone to learn something, but you can stop promoting them.

Well, then they get mad, think it is some sort of racist conspiracy, and become bitter.

 

[puunui]

But there may be that one time in the Olympic Gold medal match when your footwork let you down and having that hand there may be the diference between Gold and Silver.

If your footwork lets you down, then you deserve to lose.

I guess the question then should be, What are the benefits of the low guard?

Try reading the entire topic. There are answers to your question there.

 

[armortkd]

If your footwork lets you down, then you deserve to lose.

Couldn't of said it any better!!! Inexperienced people don't have a clue, and we have to educate them or put them in the ring with an elite player. If having your guard up was that critical, more elite players would be doing it.

 

[wayneshin]

Try reading the entire topic. There are answers to your question there.

An unnecessarily blunt response I would have thought.

Sorry but I've read it and just re-read it and haven't found the answer. I found plenty of reason why you don't feel you need your hands up and agree totally footwork is far more effective than blocking esp when defending kicks. BUT nothing explains why hands down is better than hands up.
I'd probably also add that the boxing analogy holds no water whatsoever. Sure plenty of boxers will hold their hands down to taunt, you see the same in karate, but the default position remains hands up. WTF seems to be the opposite.

 

[puunui]

Sorry but I've read it and just re-read it and haven't found the answer. I found plenty of reason why you don't feel you need your hands up and agree totally footwork is far more effective than blocking esp when defending kicks. BUT nothing explains why hands down is better than hands up.

I believe someone already said it, but one reason why hands are down is to guard against roundhouse kicks to the body, which is the predominant method of scoring points under the WTF Competition Rules. The concept of kicking while dropping one's hands to protect is I believe called cover kicking. You cover your scoring areas and kick at the same time. Head shots are generally not blocked but rather avoided using head or even shoulder movements. I have one student who is so skilled at blocking head shots that he could tuck his chin and raise his shoulder and you could not get a head kick in on him, at least not a clean one that would lead to a knockout.

This is changing to a certain extent using the LaJust electronic scoring system. LaJust fails more often than not, to score roundhouse kicks to the body. At the same time, competitors are awarded multiple points for scoring shots to the head, which has lead to a big increase in inside crescent type kicks. The defense for this is for competitors to raise their hands like they are surrendering, exposing their bodies because the probability is low that LaJust will score the roundhouse to the body. So now we have crude, inelegant and poorly conceived kicking strategies dominating matches at WTF International Events.

Hopefully this will change, given the fact that it has been announced that the Daedo electronic scoring system will be used at the London Olympics next year, instead of LaJust.

 

[puunui]

I'd probably also add that the boxing analogy holds no water whatsoever. Sure plenty of boxers will hold their hands down to taunt, you see the same in karate, but the default position remains hands up. WTF seems to be the opposite.

The boxing analogy does hold, because those boxers who keep their hands up are doing so because they stand with striking distance of their opponents. The boxers who tend to hold their hands lower in boxing are also the ones who utilize footwork as well as head and body movement for defense. Muhammad Ali and Roy Jones come to mind. So it is not enough to say that the default position is hands up; you also have to say when those hands are up and when they are down.

 

[wayneshin]

The boxing analogy does hold, because those boxers who keep their hands up are doing so because they stand with striking distance of their opponents. The boxers who tend to hold their hands lower in boxing are also the ones who utilize footwork as well as head and body movement for defense. Muhammad Ali and Roy Jones come to mind. So it is not enough to say that the default position is hands up; you also have to say when those hands are up and when they are down.

I guess that seemes reasonable - although I would suggest that most boxes and trainers would still advocate hands up even when out of range.

I concede that here is where my lack of first hand knowledge of your sport comes into play, but when a boxer moves into range to attack the hands come up, one is punch, the other is in a defensive position, same in karate. In TKD as you enter distance to kick where are the hands? Or is it that the potential to counter-attack is different.

 

[puunui]

I concede that here is where my lack of first hand knowledge of your sport comes into play, but when a boxer moves into range to attack the hands come up, one is punch, the other is in a defensive position, same in karate. In TKD as you enter distance to kick where are the hands? Or is it that the potential to counter-attack is different.

Depends on the skill level of both you and your opponent. If the hands do go up, especially on the inside, it goes to your opponent's body, to feel your opponent's intention and movement more so than to block a head kick. Try it, close your eyes and touch your partner and see if you can visualize what their body and legs are doing. Have your partner lift their leg up and see if you can sense that. Once you get that ....

But that is also changing, due to LaJust. Now many put their hands up, like they are saying "I surrender", because of the low probability of scoring to the body.

 

[RRepster]

Greetings! Having come over to TKD from SBK/TSD, I've noticed that many (not all) students attending schools that Olympic-style sparring have a very bad habit of keeping his or her guard lowered during training and/or sparring. When TKD first appeared in the Olympics, I was surprised to see this phenomena. Trying not to be judgmental, I asked very excellent TKD practioner about it. He explained that the TKD players do this for three reasons: 1. he/she has confidence in his/her reaction time and speed to avoid an attack; 2. punches cannot be thrown to the face; 3. lowering the hands conserves energy. I understand and appreciate these factors, which having a singular applicability to competition; however, I still find it to be a bad habit, which if unchecked, can carry over into free-style sparring or self-defense with dire consequences. In my own TKD Olympic-sparring sessions (which is limited set of experiences, mind you), having had my hands up has saved my head more than I care to admit. Thoughts? Comments? Videos?

Thanks in advance! You guys and gals help me grow and learn.

The reasons are sound on a pure sport level but I disagree with them for practicality because it will form a bad habit. The reason for sparring should always always always always always be to practice a real live fight or as close as possible to simulate. I'm a TKD student, participate in tournaments and compete this way. I have the trophies and medals to prove that you can spar competitively with your hands up, block more effectively and save yourself from a knockout head kick. The lack of people punching and not guarding just makes it easier for me to score on them when I drill into them or step INTO their round kick and backfist them in the chest. Sadly though, many many punches don't get counted because: a) bias on the judges for the WTF hands down, flashy kicks style and b) they happen at closer range so they are not looking enough even when you knock them on their butt by it. BUT at least I know I scored and for me the real point of competition is trying my self defense skills out in a safe way against a fast live opponent.

If one doesn't keep that part in perspective then they are not practicing a martial art IMO but a sport. Nothing wrong with that but they should acknowledge it and stop kidding themselves and conning others in the process.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I have the trophies and medals to prove that you can spar competitively with your hands up, block more effectively and save yourself from a knockout head kick.

Correct me if I am wrong, but your trophies and medals prove *you* can spar competitively with your hands up. Not everyone has your skill level, perhaps?

If you are saying it can be done, I'm sure you are right. But perhaps not by everyone.

If one doesn't keep that part in perspective then they are not practicing a martial art IMO but a sport. Nothing wrong with that but they should acknowledge it and stop kidding themselves and conning others in the process.

You seem angry. Speaking only for myself, I am quite aware of the difference between point-sparring in a tournament and martial arts, not to mention just the general concept of self-defense. I hope I'm neither kidding myself nor conning anyone else. However, the fact is, I like to compete in tournaments, I'm aware that it is a 'game' and not MA or SD, and I realize I have to adjust my techniques to fit what I am doing at the time.

 

[seasoned]

"Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee", also, my instructor would always say "if you can dance you can fight".
I take the above 2 sayings as you have to have foot work, and a sense of body rhythm.

I feel that the guard position is only part of the equation to consider. I know there are many different rules to consider, but from a basic starting place, lets say hands neutral, not too high and not too low. When facing an opponent you stay out of their range, but that puts you out of your striking distance. The next part of the scenario is to be able to move in and out of hitting range freely, which brings into play the two saying above. Once you have considered distance and foot work, you have taken control of when you score and hopefully their opportunity to do the same. With all this said, now put the hands where you want. But, keeping in mind, no matter where your hands are you will always be open.
Good luck.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Float like a butterfly sting like a bee, also my instructor always said "if you can dance you can fight".
I take the above 2 sayings as "you have to have foot work", and a. I feel that the guard position is only part of the equation to consider.

Yeah, I'm not much of a dancer, either.

My thoughts on it were what I thought the OP was referring to. I keep getting kicked in the gut in ippon competitions. Solution? Learn to protect the gut. Hands not fast enough? Adjust the guard. I don't know if it's going to work or not, I'll find out in a couple weeks in Indianapolis. I mean, give me a reason to keep doing what I'm doing now, given that it's not working for me. I have to play the hand I have - I'm not fast enough. In time, perhaps I'll improve; I certainly hope so! But for now, I have to stop the kicks coming in to my midsection, don't I?

 

[seasoned]

Yeah, I'm not much of a dancer, either.

My thoughts on it were what I thought the OP was referring to. I keep getting kicked in the gut in ippon competitions. Solution? Learn to protect the gut. Hands not fast enough? Adjust the guard. I don't know if it's going to work or not, I'll find out in a couple weeks in Indianapolis. I mean, give me a reason to keep doing what I'm doing now, given that it's not working for me. I have to play the hand I have - I'm not fast enough. In time, perhaps I'll improve; I certainly hope so! But for now, I have to stop the kicks coming in to my midsection, don't I?

Thats what it is all about, Bill. Finding out what works for you. Suggestions are good and gives us more to consider. Please, keep us in the loop on how Indianapolis turns out.

 

[RRepster]

Correct me if I am wrong, but your trophies and medals prove *you* can spar competitively with your hands up. Not everyone has your skill level, perhaps?

If you are saying it can be done, I'm sure you are right. But perhaps not by everyone.



You seem angry. Speaking only for myself, I am quite aware of the difference between point-sparring in a tournament and martial arts, not to mention just the general concept of self-defense. I hope I'm neither kidding myself nor conning anyone else. However, the fact is, I like to compete in tournaments, I'm aware that it is a 'game' and not MA or SD, and I realize I have to adjust my techniques to fit what I am doing at the time.

true but unless one has decades of coaching behind them all any of us can do is make points from our perspective, thought that was obvious maybe shoulda been more clear, but yea you got it right - that's from my experience and perspective, and I've seen some spar very well doing the hippty hoppity hands down leg fencing - having experienced real self defense situations I fear for them but that's their own lesson to learn.

Nah, not angry at all though just pointing out difference between sport and martial art which is a common topic on MA forums. Thx for checking though.

Rob

 

[StagTown]

I drill into them or step INTO their round kick and backfist them in the chest

backfist is not allowed in wtf full contact so which rule set do you spar under?

 

[andyjeffries]

backfist is not allowed in wtf full contact so which rule set do you spar under?

The funny thing was that I was going to post the same thing last night. But it's been a while since I've competed (or coached anyone to compete) so I thought I'd look it up in the WTF rules and quote the article/passage. And guess what... It's now allowed.

http://www.wtf.org/wtf_eng/site/rules/file/Competition_Rules_(Tashkent_version_final_2010).pdf

Whereas the rules used to state* "Fist technique: Delivering techniques by using the front parts of the forefinger and middle finger of the tightly clenched fist", now Article 11 (page 19 of the link above) now describes permitted techniques as "Fist technique: Delivering a punch using the tightly clenched fist" with the explanatory note "In the original Korean terminology of techniques, the term “Pa-run-ju-mok” can be interpreted as a correctly clenched fist. Therefore, striking with the correctly clenched fist is permitted without consideration of the angle, trajectory, or fist placement of the strike".

The fist must be closed, but hammerfist or backfist are not just permitted, but scoring techniques under current WTF rules.

That said, IRs may have been told slightly differently so you may have more current knowledge (if you are an IR) but going by "the letter of the law", they are now valid.

* The old 2006 rules are available at http://www.britishtaekwondo.org.uk/usrdata/File/downloads/wtf_competition_rules_english.pdf

 

[StagTown]

The fist must be closed, but hammerfist or backfist are not just permitted, but scoring techniques under current WTF rules.

if thats the case andy I find it very contridictory, hammer or backfist dont use the front part of the knuckles, iv only just rejoined a club that competes so il ask the cheif next time I train, lots of things have changed since I last fought ie...scoreing to the back allowed, no leg blocking etc etc....il have to have a good read of current rules soon as I source them.

bests stagtown