Poomse vs. Tul vs. Hyung

[Earl Weiss]

Chris there is no sidekick in ITF TKD, then what do you call it, every ITF person I know does a sidekick?

To elaborate on Mr. Spiller's points the english terms for the various types of "side" kicks in the ITF syllabus (Not neccessarily in order of the korean terms listed) are:

Side:
Piercing
Pressing (Inward and Outward)
Pushing
Thrusting
Checking
Rising

Although technicaly not enough information, if you tell an ITF student to do a "Side Kick" most would understand lack of info to default to a side piercing kick.

 

[dancingalone]

Although technicaly not enough information, if you tell an ITF student to do a "Side Kick" most would understand lack of info to default to a side piercing kick.

I was about to make the same point, albeit on a more general TKD level. If someone asked me to show a sidekick, I would likely default to the Korean side snap kick with the heel as the striking surface.

 

[MSUTKD]

Poomsae means "articles for cultivating strength"; from the hanja. Poomsae referrs to a collection; taeguek, palgwe and the yudanja forms. Hyung is the Korean pronunciation of the hanja for kata. Tul is a purely Korean word and has no hanja equivalent.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I was about to make the same point, albeit on a more general TKD level. If someone asked me to show a sidekick, I would likely default to the Korean side snap kick with the heel as the striking surface.

But this description doesn't really fit any of the kicks I mentioned above. None of the ITF "side kicks" use the heel. Nor do they really "snap" (if by "snap" you mean something like Shotokan's Yoko geri keage). You might consider a Yopcha jirugi to be close to what you're talking about but it doesn't "snap," it corkscrews towards the target akin to what a punch does. And it uses the footsword as an attacking tool not the heel.

This just backs up my earlier comment to Terry. Terminology might sound weird to people who aren't used to it even if it is all Korean. For example, I've heard people talk about a "side thrust kick" as opposed to a "side snap kick" but what they mean is a side kick that uses a lot of hip twist and the heel or edge of the foot. But that's very different from an ITF Yopcha tulgi ("side thrust kick").

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

But this description doesn't really fit any of the kicks I mentioned above. None of the ITF "side kicks" use the heel. Nor do they really "snap" (if by "snap" you mean something like Shotokan's Yoko geri keage). You might consider a Yopcha jirugi to be close to what you're talking about but it doesn't "snap," it corkscrews towards the target akin to what a punch does. And it uses the footsword as an attacking tool not the heel.

This just backs up my earlier comment to Terry. Terminology might sound weird to people who aren't used to it even if it is all Korean. For example, I've heard people talk about a "side thrust kick" as opposed to a "side snap kick" but what they mean is a side kick that uses a lot of hip twist and the heel or edge of the foot. But that's very different from an ITF Yopcha tulgi ("side thrust kick").

Pax,

Chris

Honestly, Chris, I think you're overemphasizing the differences. I consulted my copy of the Encyclopedia Vol 4 on pages 25-33 for the description of 'yopcha jurugi'. Other than the use of the foot sword and the inward pulling of the foot sword to the stationary leg, that's roughly how I would execute what I call a side snap kick. 'Snap' in the way I use it (most others that I've come across, too) simply refers to the quick retraction and rechamber of the kicking leg, as it's a key part to producing 'trembling shock' power.

If you see important technical differences, so be it. I do not. When I say side snap kick, I AM referring to what you term the 'side piercing kick'. There's only so many ways to kick, and anyone with years in Tae Kwon Do will likely come across the majority of them even if the vocabulary is different along with slight subtle differences in physical execution. I don't think it's a big deal. The saying about tomato, tomatoe, potato, potatoe comes to mind.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Honestly, Chris, I think you're overemphasizing the differences. I consulted my copy of the Encyclopedia Vol 4 on pages 25-33 for the description of 'yopcha jurugi'. Other than the use of the foot sword and the inward pulling of the foot sword to the stationary leg, that's roughly how I would execute what I call a side snap kick. 'Snap' in the way I use it (most others that I've come across, too) simply refers to the quick retraction and rechamber of the kicking leg, as it's a key part to producing 'trembling shock' power.

If you see important technical differences, so be it. I do not. When I say side snap kick, I AM referring to what you term the 'side piercing kick'. There's only so many ways to kick, and anyone with years in Tae Kwon Do will likely come across the majority of them even if the vocabulary is different along with slight subtle differences in physical execution. I don't think it's a big deal. The saying about tomato, tomatoe, potato, potatoe comes to mind.

That's because a lot of the explanations for differences in execution an application of techniques such as Piercing, Striking, and Thrusting (Andother indfo like pressing, checking etc. ) are found in sections addressing those characteristics and not repeated for each technique. So, you would have to read those sections about the technique or for a limited explanation:

http://sites.google.com/site/ntkdacad/articles

And Click on "A Punch, A Strike..."

 

[miguksaram]

Tul is a purely Korean word and has no hanja equivalent.

So it is a simple hangul written word? (tikut, u, riul - I don't have korean characters on my work keyboard)

I would like to see if my wife has ever seen this word written.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So it is a simple hangul written word? (tikut, u, riul - I don't have korean characters on my work keyboard)

I would like to see if my wife has ever seen this word written.

틀

Does that look familiar? I don't have a Hangul keyboard at work either, but I do have copy and paste.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

틀

Does that look familiar? I don't have a Hangul keyboard at work either, but I do have copy and paste.

Daniel

Is that how it is spelled out? That is actually T'iot, uu, riol. I just want to be sure when I ask.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Is that how it is spelled out? That is actually T'iot, uu, riol. I just want to be sure when I ask.

According to Wikipedia (for what its worth), revised romanization is teul, which would be consistent with 틀
spelling.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

If you see important technical differences, so be it. I do not. When I say side snap kick, I AM referring to what you term the 'side piercing kick'. There's only so many ways to kick, and anyone with years in Tae Kwon Do will likely come across the majority of them even if the vocabulary is different along with slight subtle differences in physical execution. I don't think it's a big deal. The saying about tomato, tomatoe, potato, potatoe comes to mind.

For me the Bruce Lee saying (which BL borrowed from Zen) "a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick..." comes to mind.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Honestly, Chris, I think you're overemphasizing the differences.

Yes, somewhat purposefully, too, in order to make my point about not recognizing something even if it's in Korean (which was the original point I was making in response to Terry's comment about poomse sounding weird).

Let me try making my point a different way.

Do you think a non-ITF practitioner would find any of these terms weird if asked to demonstrate them?

Yopcha momchugi
Yopcha jirugi
Yopcha milgi
Yopcha olligi
Yopcha tulgi

You might be able to puzzle some of them out if you know KKW terminology or have a working knowledge of Korean, but some of them are just going to sound odd even for those who know Korean terminology from a different organization. That's my only point.

Pax,

Chris

 

[bluewaveschool]

I've forgotten all my Korean besides attention, bow, count 1-10, begin, and return to attention stance, and I bet money that I butcher pronouncing all of those.

 

[miguksaram]

Tul is a purely Korean word and has no hanja equivalent.

Finally remembered to ask my wife about this today. The best way to describe Tul is at term Koreans used to describe something that is a premade pattern. An example would be like a cookie dough cutter. The pattern is already made ahead of time. There is you news you never knew you needed to know.

 

[andyjeffries]

I've forgotten all my Korean besides attention, bow, count 1-10, begin, and return to attention stance, and I bet money that I butcher pronouncing all of those.

As long as you don't butcher the pronunciation of Taekwondo.

That's my #1 pet peeve when people say it as "Thai" Kwon Do.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As long as you don't butcher the pronunciation of Taekwondo.

That's my #1 pet peeve when people say it as "Thai" Kwon Do.

You're thinking of 'Tie' kwon do. That is a separate art developed by office workers and involves the use of the tie as a weapon.

Skilled tiekwondo masters can snatch guns from a gunman's hands and can also be used like Indiana Jones' bullwhip.

And don't let the fact that 'tae' is not in the name; a skilled tiekwondoist knows the value of Rockports, so kicking is strongly encouraged.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

As long as you don't butcher the pronunciation of Taekwondo.
That's my #1 pet peeve when people say it as "Thai" Kwon Do.

Sometimes I wonder whether it would have been better to romanize it as Tech kwondo.

 

[miguksaram]

Sometimes I wonder whether it would have been better to romanize it as Tech kwondo.

You could have but then it would have been very wrong. Korean language rules would dictate that in a word structure such tae 태 kwon 권 do 도 would have three distinct sounds and would not merge like some words would. The first part of the word ends with the vowel ㅐ(as in pat). This signifies the next part starting with the consonant ㄱ (as in kite) would be a distinct sound. So when we romanize 태권도, it should actually be spelled out as one word (taekwondo). To spell it out as three seperate words is incorrect as each one by itself makes not sense in clarifying the overall meaning.

One of the hardest things about learning Korean language is remembering resyllabification rules. Certain combination of words will cause pronunciation to be different based on the letter structuring and give you a whole new definition.

 

[bluewaveschool]

All I ever see is squares when you guys post Korean/Japanese/Chinese characters. Any way to fix this?

 

[dancingalone]

All I ever see is squares when you guys post Korean/Japanese/Chinese characters. Any way to fix this?

You just need to enable support for the relevant character sets. This should help walk you through the process if you're running Windows.

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:How_to_display_foreign_characters