Where has Poomse intensity gone?

[Marginal]

No, I'm not talking about gymnastics, I guess, not really. I meant flexibility. It helps, or what I've seen, if your more flexible. The higher the kick, the more points you get from judges. If you and a competitor have about the same abilities, but one is more flexible, then the judges will choose that one.

Which then trains those unfortunate dupes to kick above their opponent's heads on a consistent basis.

Which accomplishes nothing.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Yeah, I agree, yet I disagree. I agree for some people, but kicking above your head actually strengthens your kicks and flexibility. Well, if you can keep your leg up there. I can. But nonethless, TKD is about Flashy kicks nowadays, so you can't expect things to go back to old, now that ATA and WTF are the main TKD schools worldwide. And that's not a punch at either organizations. I'm just fine with it because I love my flexibility and want to get faster and stronger with my legs. I just say do it because you can, and if you can't, well, try.

 

[Marginal]

Poor technique's part of the reason TKD has earned a bad rep. Lettin' it slide because "dude it's cool!"... Nah.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Even in our organization, I see a lot of younger black belts who try to be extra fancy in executing forms in competition. Not so much in making up techniques, which is prohibited, but in showing how flexible they are in kicking techniques that do not require that much flexibility. The judges, myself included, would much rather see forms executed the way they were designed-using speed when necessary, gracefulness, power etc. Being able to kick the ceiling in the first kicking set in Koryo means nothing to me. Demonstrating the techniques so that there is no doubt you could make them work means a lot more.
In my opinion, these open tournaments where participants use gymnastic techniques and fancy uniforms are laughable. Where is the martial art? What exactly are these techniques supposed to accomplish? If I want gymnastics, I'll go to a gymnastic tournament.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

yeah, well, I didn't quite mean that, but think about it...what abilities do the greats have? The ones who win the US Open? Now those are fighters, and seriously, they can do about any gymnastic move. Tournaments should not be about gymanstics, but to incorporate the flexibility and also certain aspects is just part of MA.

 

[Marginal]

yeah, well, I didn't quite mean that, but think about it...what abilities do the greats have? The ones who win the US Open? Now those are fighters, and seriously, they can do about any gymnastic move.

Good conditioning leads to leg strength. Leg strength with sloppy technique, or poor aim is leg strength that doesn't really matter.

That's not saying flexibility isn't useful tho. I can kick above my head, and it has helped me score points in sparring against taller opponents more or less because they don't really expect to be kicked in the head. OTOH, part of the art is discipline, and if a pattern calls for a mid or low kick, shooting that kick above my head only demonstrates one thing... I don't know my pattern.

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Which then trains those unfortunate dupes to kick above their opponent's heads on a consistent basis.

Which accomplishes nothing......
....Good conditioning leads to leg strength. Leg strength with sloppy technique, or poor aim is leg strength that doesn't really matter.

That's not saying flexibility isn't useful tho. I can kick above my head, and it has helped me score points in sparring against taller opponents more or less because they don't really expect to be kicked in the head. OTOH, part of the art is discipline, and if a pattern calls for a mid or low kick, shooting that kick above my head only demonstrates one thing... I don't know my pattern.

I disagree. It's a known fact that flexibility is a major component of Taekwondo. In order to get full power out of the rotation of your hips during kicking, you must have that flexibility. In order to be able to adjust kicks to movements done by your opponent mid-flight, to ensure it hits the target, flexibility is needed. In order to double/triple-up... combo effectively, that flexibility has to be there. Someone who has ease kicking at head level, will have that much more ease kicking mid-level or lower. Those that aren't as flexible (or atleast don't strive to improve) will have more difficulty performing the same techniques as those who are. Along with the fact that, a player who is more flexible, will have more tools available to imploy.

Kicking high during Poomse, is another way to raise the bar of difficulty. Mind you, it must be done with control and sharpness. Now I'm not saying replace all lowline kicks for high ones... but when a kick as for a mid/high section kick, its basically a testament to your ability. It all comes down to leg control.

:asian:

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Not just leg control, but balance too. To kick higher you need better control of your balance and solid sole. Can be harder for less experienced MAs.

 

[MichiganTKD]

But realize, Poomse technique is designed for a reason: to show responses to an attack. Kicking very high to show you can is meaningless if the form technique is headlevel or middle for a reason. How many 7'5" opponents do you know? Forms are supposed to teach accuracy, power, gracefulness etc. They are designed to show realistic simulated defenses and attacks. If you want to kick very high because you can, demonstate a vertical side kick board break.

 

[Marginal]

I disagree. It's a known fact that flexibility is a major component of Taekwondo. In order to get full power out of the rotation of your hips during kicking, you must have that flexibility. In order to be able to adjust kicks to movements done by your opponent mid-flight, to ensure it hits the target, flexibility is needed. In order to double/triple-up... combo effectively, that flexibility has to be there. Someone who has ease kicking at head level, will have that much more ease kicking mid-level or lower. Those that aren't as flexible (or atleast don't strive to improve) will have more difficulty performing the same techniques as those who are. Along with the fact that, a player who is more flexible, will have more tools available to imploy.[/b]

I'm not on a sports team. I'm not a player.

Kicking high during Poomse, is another way to raise the bar of difficulty. Mind you, it must be done with control and sharpness. Now I'm not saying replace all lowline kicks for high ones... but when a kick as for a mid/high section kick, its basically a testament to your ability. It all comes down to leg control.

:asian:

My point is, kicking high has its place. It doesn't really belong in patterns unless they're asked for. Just whizzing it up as high as you can doesnt' really demonstrate any form of useful targeting, and there are far better leg strenghtening exercises, so it doesn't make you better at TKD, or better at kicking for all the showboating.

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

I'm not on a sports team. I'm not a player.

My point is, kicking high has its place. It doesn't really belong in patterns unless they're asked for. Just whizzing it up as high as you can doesnt' really demonstrate any form of useful targeting, and there are far better leg strenghtening exercises, so it doesn't make you better at TKD, or better at kicking for all the showboating.

You are a player... everyone is for that matter. I believe you are taking the word into the wrong context. Unless every single time you practice, is a real-life self-defense situation... then all other forms of practice can be categorized as play, because it's not the real thing. To simulate is to play. Similar to bear cubs, how they play together but are in fact learning ways to protect themselves.

I understand your point when speaking of the showboats that are sometimes doing a bit too much. But when it comes to high kicking, who really defines what a high section kick is? A high section kick can be at any number of levels. Now I'm not promoting showboats, but with the same token... high level kicking is an example of flexibility and dexterity. And these do make you better at TKD.

 

[Marginal]

You are a player... everyone is for that matter. I believe you are taking the word into the wrong context. Unless every single time you practice, is a real-life self-defense situation... then all other forms of practice can be categorized as play, because it's not the real thing. To simulate is to play. Similar to bear cubs, how they play together but are in fact learning ways to protect themselves.

It's just a pet peeve of mine. Player's just not a good term for practicing a MA IMO. People play cards,tag, baccarat etc. I'm not looking to have a quick game of TKD. Practice doesn't equal play. It equals practice.

I'm not a TKD player. You can call me one, but I'll never accept the label. Call it semantical quibbling, but there are better, more apt words to use IMO. (shrug)

I understand your point when speaking of the showboats that are sometimes doing a bit too much. But when it comes to high kicking, who really defines what a high section kick is? A high section kick can be at any number of levels. Now I'm not promoting showboats, but with the same token... high level kicking is an example of flexibility and dexterity. And these do make you better at TKD.

Hmm. Flexibility and dexterity don't really add up to power however. Power is power. That's derived from strength and the correct application of biomechanics. You don't need to be flexible to knock someone down with a mid level kick.

I'm still of the opinion that you should be going for a definite target with a high kick. (Or any kick really.) Be it jaw, temple, nose etc, the attack should be thrown with a target in mind, and few of those happen to appear above your head.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Well, see the point I was trying to make earlier is that everyone has their own style or way to do things. So, you can't say its stupid doing it one way or another, if it looks good, and it works for them, fine. Some people can't control their flexible kicks and some can control, but aren't able to achieve high kicks due to their lack of flexibility. So it all depends on that person.

That being said, some judges may be one way or the other in their own style and might look for the things they themselves can do. Or want to do, or are impressed most with. Also, Judges don't all find the same problems.

 

[Marginal]

Well, see the point I was trying to make earlier is that everyone has their own style or way to do things. So, you can't say its stupid doing it one way or another, if it looks good, and it works for them, fine. Some people can't control their flexible kicks and some can control, but aren't able to achieve high kicks due to their lack of flexibility. So it all depends on that person.

What you said was, "If you can, do it, if you can't, well... Try." Which pretty much is just you saying that everyone should be aspiring to kick above their heads whenever possible. Even if there are valid reasons (like working to hit viable targets etc) outside of physical limitations and/or lazy judges at tournaments.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Well, like I said, it all depends on the person. I meant the statement(if you can, good, if not, well...try!) for people who aspire to be flexible and kick high, but can't. I also just meant it for most people in general. Whether people like it or not, TKD is now and probably forever an MA that has to do high kicks and flexibility. If you don't like it, well, we can't change that fact. Kinda of funny when you think about it. Anyways, TKD isn't for everybody, anyway...

 

[Marginal]

TKD is now and probably forever an MA that has to do high kicks and flexibility. If you don't like it, well, we can't change that fact.

Sure we can. We define the art, not the other way around.

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

It's just a pet peeve of mine. Player's just not a good term for practicing a MA IMO. People play cards,tag, baccarat etc. I'm not looking to have a quick game of TKD. Practice doesn't equal play. It equals practice.

I'm not a TKD player. You can call me one, but I'll never accept the label. Call it semantical quibbling, but there are better, more apt words to use IMO. (shrug)

Well, like I said... you were taking the word out of context. Maybe you just have a problem with the word itself? Practice is play IMHO, but if you don't want to refer to it as such; no harm done. To truly practice self-defense or fighting, requires you to put yourself in situations that require real self-defense. This is why I refer to it as play, because all else is simulation.

Hmm. Flexibility and dexterity don't really add up to power however. Power is power. That's derived from strength and the correct application of biomechanics. You don't need to be flexible to knock someone down with a mid level kick.

I'm still of the opinion that you should be going for a definite target with a high kick. (Or any kick really.) Be it jaw, temple, nose etc, the attack should be thrown with a target in mind, and few of those happen to appear above your head.

Flexibility and dexterity are advanced components of power. The better range of motion you have in your joints, muscles, etc... the more power you will be able to generate. Let alone the fact that you increase your speed with improved flexibility. Let's take the round kick for example. If you don't have the proper amount of hip flexibility, you wont generate the max available power for your kick. Power in the round kick mainly comes from the rotation of the hip, along with extension of the knee. If a person doesn't have that hip flexibility, how can they effectively rotate their hip? Now, it can be done with limited flexibilty, but the more flexible that said person becomes, the more power they will generate in that round kick. Improving your flexibility allows for better biomechanics, IMHO. And I believe it these DO make you better at Taekwondo.

As far as kicking above the head, there will be times (especially in TKD) where you will need to. But thats not my point. What I'm trying to convey is the fact that kicking high will just make it that much easier to kick low. A target is hardly ever going to be exactly where you plan it to be. During execution of a kick, you may need to adjust your kick to your opponent's reaction or movement... to ensure that you hit your desired target. Flexibility allows you to do so. The more a "Good TKD" player improves his/her flexibility, the better that said person will become. Because you are increasing your range of motion, which will give you access to more targets and also allow you to recover faster.

 

[Marginal]

Well, like I said... you were taking the word out of context. Maybe you just have a problem with the word itself? Practice is play IMHO, but if you don't want to refer to it as such; no harm done. To truly practice self-defense or fighting, requires you to put yourself in situations that require real self-defense. This is why I refer to it as play, because all else is simulation.

I dislike play because it's inaccurate. Bear cubs play. Kids play cops and robbers etc, but there's no methodology behind that particular mode of "practice". It doesn't lead to them being good or even competant at the activity they're mimicking.

Is a soldier a national defense player? Or a national defense simulationist?

Flexibility and dexterity are advanced components of power. The better range of motion you have in your joints, muscles, etc... the more power you will be able to generate.

Had that covered with biomechanics.

Let alone the fact that you increase your speed with improved flexibility. Let's take the round kick for example. If you don't have the proper amount of hip flexibility, you wont generate the max available power for your kick.

Hip flexibility in this case doesn't require much. You just have to be able to rotate your hips. Power and range are lost when you extend above the waist. The flexibility you need to deliver a powerful round kick doesn't automatically come from being flexible enough to kick above waist level.

Improving your flexibility allows for better biomechanics, IMHO. And I believe it these DO make you better at Taekwondo.

All I'm saying is, there's a point of diminishing returns.

As far as kicking above the head, there will be times (especially in TKD) where you will need to.

They're not really common outside of competition sparring.

But thats not my point. What I'm trying to convey is the fact that kicking high will just make it that much easier to kick low.

Wouldn't kicking low be the best manner to improve one's technique in that respect? The biomechanics differ in a high kick.

During execution of a kick, you may need to adjust your kick to your opponent's reaction or movement... to ensure that you hit your desired target. Flexibility allows you to do so. The more a "Good TKD" player improves his/her flexibility, the better that said person will become. Because you are increasing your range of motion, which will give you access to more targets and also allow you to recover faster.

You can develop those abilities without kicking above your head in a pattern. If you are not taking potential targets into account when you're throwing a kick in practice, how/why would you be doing so at any other time?

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

I dislike play because it's inaccurate. Bear cubs play. Kids play cops and robbers etc, but there's no methodology behind that particular mode of "practice". It doesn't lead to them being good or even competant at the activity they're mimicking.

Is a soldier a national defense player? Or a national defense simulationist?

If that said soldier hasn't been into multiple real-time national defense situations, then I would say so. I am not placing a negative connotation on the word "play". All I'm saying is anything short of the real thing, is not the real thing. And this is why I refer to it as play. It doesn't mean that your training is any less-serious. If you feel the word "play" is an insult to your training, then let the word be replaced. This is simply a word that I use, as well as my Instructors. Let us not mis-understand the context of the word.

Had that covered with biomechanics.

In which, I was adding on to your point. Biomechanics can be improved upon with increased with flexibilty.

Hip flexibility in this case doesn't require much. You just have to be able to rotate your hips. Power and range are lost when you extend above the waist. The flexibility you need to deliver a powerful round kick doesn't automatically come from being flexible enough to kick above waist level

I'm unsure as to what type of round kick you throw, but the types I have learned require a good amount of hip flexibility to be thrown effectively. Power is only lost if you don't have the flexibility to effectively rotate your hip at that range. Range is shortened by a little bit, yes. Granted, one can pull the kick off without the said flexibility, but the more he /she improves flexibility, the better the kick will become. Along with improvements on recovery time, follow-ups, etc. Additionally, I never said flexibility was the only component of generating power in a round kick. What I did attempt to say was that it adds to the potential of generating more power.

All I'm saying is, there's a point of diminishing returns.

Are you talking in terms of flexibility? If so, as long as you maintain good muscle control, you wont run into any problems. It will actually improve your returns... especially talking in terms of aging.

They're not really common outside of competition sparring.

I disagree. If you are talking about self-defense situations, they are completely random. You can't predict what will happen in an SD situation, and I wouldn't rule out a head kick. Many styles use them in self-defense (TKD included), and you never know when you may need to call upon one. So I'm unsure as to exactly what you mean here.

Wouldn't kicking low be the best manner to improve one's technique in that respect? The biomechanics differ in a high kick.

Sure, but what about in combination with other kicks? A moving target? a counter? Kicking high is just one of the many ways you can build the dexterity to use the variations of kicks and so on. There may be other methods to do the same thing, but this can help too.

You can develop those abilities without kicking above your head in a pattern. If you are not taking potential targets into account when you're throwing a kick in practice, how/why would you be doing so at any other time?

A person can kick a little higher than normal and still have a potential target they are aiming for. What if you're in a situation where someone is taller than you? Or one where your opponent is elevated somewhat? What if you're fighting mulitple opponents? The target level can change, there isn't a standard as to where one should place a mental target for kicking. By all means, I'm not saying replace all lowline kicks for high ones. I'm just bringing up a point in that a person who has mastered high-level kicking is more prone to be adept in the different kicking ranges, than the reverse. But if a person doesn't feel a need for the reverse (i.e. high-section kiking) thats their opinion. They are only limiting themselves. Lastly, there may be other ways to develop similar qualities, but this will still help nonetheless.

:asian: :asian:

 

[elcajon555]

I think one of the problems with form intensity is that the master keep changing different aspects of higher level forms, thus you have to keep changing your timing, was is what intesity is all about. Three years ago I learned Keumgang, and I was taught that it was a very slow moving form, well recently I tested for my second degree black belt, and they said that all the forms were not acceptable and they changed the pacing of it, now I have to retest in 3 months and before then I have to change three years a practice to get what they want to see, certainly my intenity will suffer. Another thing, I work with children alot and forms are the weakest part of the school, everyone sucks at them, accept maybe 2, including kids and adults. The only time people fail on forms is when they miss a move, if they get all the moves right, then they will pass, which is complete crab, because half the kids can;t do a decent stance, nor do they have any power. Now as for flexibity it cetainly is important in taekwondo but so is focus and targetting. When I was taught my forms every strike had a target and that target was relative to the person who was performing the form. Meaning that if it was a face punch, then it was your face height, is it was a middle punch then it was your soloar plex. BY exuceting the forms in this manner it shows your abilty to focus on a target that is not there and know where you are. Forms are not designed to showoff your flexibitly,that is what splits and general techingues are for. They are designed to show timing balance visulation and intensity. Generally speaking forms are the weakest part Of the art and that is because everyone as downplayed their importance and focused on other things. And rarely do people fail a test because of their form(in fact I have been trainign for over 6 years and my entire group failed going for 2nd degree because of the form and other techigues, even thought we had gotten all the moves they wanted it better, and that was the first time anyone was failed even when they knew all the moves.) People think that as soon as they know the moves than they can stop working on them and that is far from it, once you know all the moves then you can start to work on it to make it good.