Poomse vs. Tul vs. Hyung

[dancingalone]

Could someone give an informed explanation of what each of these terms mean? Is there a true distinction between each word or are they equivalent synonyms?

 

[DMcHenry]

Poomse is the term used by the WTF/Kukkiwon, Tul by the ITF, Hyung by older styles like TSD/KSD/SBD.

I believe Hyung was from more of a Chinese derived word. The others are more native Korean for form and pattern. (I may be off a bit here)

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In the KKW text book, each movement in the poomsae is called a 'poom'. In my researching Korean sword terminology, I found that postures are called 'se' or 'sae', so perhaps it is movement/posture? I've never seen the word actually defined however, so I'm guessing.

Daniel

 

[clfsean]

I believe Hyung was from more of a Chinese derived word. The others are more native Korean for form and pattern. (I may be off a bit here)

IIRC Hyung is Korean for Heian and Pyungahn is Korean for Pinan. I could be way off of that. It's been a really long time.

However, most CMA empty hand set names use "Quan/Kuen" (fist) to note a set name... i.e. Xiao Hong Quan (Small Red Fist) or Siu Moi Fah Kuen (Small Plum Flower Fist).

Sometimes you'll find used "Lu" (road or path) ... i.e. Chen shi Xin Jia Taiji Quan Yi Lu (Chen style new frame grand ultimate fist first road) or Hua Quan San Lu (Hua fist third road).

On some arts it can vary between all sorts of terms (xing {shape}, zhang {palm}, fa {method}, etc... )

 

[bluewaveschool]

Poomse just sounds strange to me. I personally use the term 'forms'.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Poomse just sounds strange to me. I personally use the term 'forms'.

Of course, forms probably sounds strange (or boring) to non English speakers, so I guess it all works out.

Consider the different terms that we have for the same word.

Forms
Patterns
Sets

One fencing school has some kind of forms and calles them etudes (a term from music theory).

Daniel

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I hesitate to even comment on this, since I do not know this for certain. BUT, I believe Poomsae means form and Hyung means pattern.. . It is my understanding that in the case of martial arts the two terms are interchangeable. We only use the term hyung in our association.

Similar to the differences in much of the terminology between the old kwans and the KKW. For example for stance we use the term Ja Sae, which I believe actually means posture. I think the KKW uses Seogi, which I believe means stance.

 

[dancingalone]

I'm interested in why each of the factions in TKD uses a different term. Just because they can? On the other hand, if there is a philosophical or deeper meaning attached to each variant, making the choice understandable and not arbitrary, that would be interesting to know.

 

[DMcHenry]

IIRC Hyung is Korean for Heian and Pyungahn is Korean for Pinan.

Korean=pyungahn, Japanese=heian, Okinawan=pinan - all mean the same thing and refer to the same name of a form/kata/hyung set of 5 forms. Translates to "peace & confidence" or close to that.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I'm interested in why each of the factions in TKD uses a different term. Just because they can? .

Like you expected them to agree on stuff?

Now, my limited research indicates that Hyung was a word of Chinese origin and as indicated above a variation on Heian.

Tul is a native Korean word from Han Gul as designed by King Se Jong. Many KLoreans I queried about this are not at all familar with the term "Tul" . I asked the Gneral's son once why that was and he indicated that it was a sowhat esoteric term.

Now, it's been a while but I did hear General Choi explain to an extent why he changed the terminilogy from Hyung to Tul. As best I can recall it was something like the literal translation of Hyung being a pattern like looking at a pattern in a piece of fabric or wall treatment and not really appropriate for designating a series of moves. He felt Tul was more appropriate.

As for Poomsae, I can only guess that some wanted to choose something other than what was already being used.

 

[clfsean]

Korean=pyungahn, Japanese=heian, Okinawan=pinan - all mean the same thing and refer to the same name of a form/kata/hyung set of 5 forms. Translates to "peace & confidence" or close to that.

Something like that!!

Like I said... a long time. Nobody that I talk to or see around town when I'm out even do them anymore. I always thought they were great.

 

[puunui]

IIRC Hyung is Korean for Heian

I want to say that hyung translates to "kata" in japanese, but I am unclear in my mind. I remember I looked them all up in a korean han moon and japanese kanji dictionary, and may even have written a post about that for tkd net, but it's been so long that frankly I forget at this point. Tul I never looked up because I don't think I could find the chinese han moon character for it, but I also want to say that I read an explanation about it from General Choi in one of his books about why he chose the word tul.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I want to say that hyung translates to "kata" in japanese, but I am unclear in my mind.

Well, the kanji for kata is 形 and the hanja for hyung is 形, so that would be reasonable.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

I want to say that hyung translates to "kata" in japanese, but I am unclear in my mind. I remember I looked them all up in a korean han moon and japanese kanji dictionary, and may even have written a post about that for tkd net, but it's been so long that frankly I forget at this point. Tul I never looked up because I don't think I could find the chinese han moon character for it, but I also want to say that I read an explanation about it from General Choi in one of his books about why he chose the word tul.

I hope hyung actually translates to something like kata or pattern, instead of being the Korean version of "Heian". If the latter, it would mean generations of Korean martial artists have been using the term incorrectly, much like the the Hawaiian Kempo people calling some of their forms "Pinians", even when they bear no relation to the Pinan karate forms at all.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I hope hyung actually translates to something like kata or pattern, instead of being the Korean version of "Heian". If the latter, it would mean generations of Korean martial artists have been using the term incorrectly, much like the the Hawaiian Kempo people calling some of their forms "Pinians", even when they bear no relation to the Pinan karate forms at all.

Wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened. Plenty of words end up used incorrectly as they migrate from one culture to another. Sometimes, a name or a word becomes associated with a thing, regardless of its actual correctness.

One question would be whether or not that particular hanja was in use in KMA prior to the Japanese occupation.

Damiel

 

[clfsean]

Well, the kanji for kata is 形 and the hanja for hyung is 形, so that would be reasonable.

Daniel

That's xing2 or shape in Mandarin.

Interesting.

 

[terryl965]

Poomse just sounds strange to me. I personally use the term 'forms'.

But poomsae is the Korean term for forms, so why would it seem strange to any korean style person.

 

[chrispillertkd]

But poomsae is the Korean term for forms, so why would it seem strange to any korean style person.

For the same reason "tul" might sound strange to some Korean stylists.

There's lots of different terminology out there and while there are times I find it easier to use Korean when discussing certain techniques (there is no "side kick" in ITF Taekwon-Do, for example, there are at least 4 side kicks I can think of off hand so what does "side kick" mean?) there will also be times when the differences in Korean used between the KKW and ITF will be confusing if you're talking to someone who isn't part of your group.

Pax,

Chris

 

[terryl965]

For the same reason "tul" might sound strange to some Korean stylists.

There's lots of different terminology out there and while there are times I find it easier to use Korean when discussing certain techniques (there is no "side kick" in ITF Taekwon-Do, for example, there are at least 4 side kicks I can think of off hand so what does "side kick" mean?) there will also be times when the differences in Korean used between the KKW and ITF will be confusing if you're talking to someone who isn't part of your group.

Pax,

Chris

Chris there is no sidekick in ITF TKD, then what do you call it, every ITF person I know does a sidekick?

 

[chrispillertkd]

Chris there is no sidekick in ITF TKD, then what do you call it, every ITF person I know does a sidekick?

Terry, if all you said to someone was to do a "side kick" (a yop chagi) they'd have to choose from the following techniques:

Yopcha momchugi
Yopcha jirugi
Yopcha milgi
Yopcha olligi
Yopcha tulgi

If you wanted to get technical they might also argue that Yobap cha busigi and Yop dollyo chagi qualify as "side kicks" (and from a purely body mechanics standpoint I'd say Bakuro noollo chagi is a "side kick," too). If all you say is "side kick" you really haven't given them enough information to know what you want.

It all goes back to my point that just because terminology is in Korean doesn't mean everyone is going to get it. I still remember the first time I heard the term "poomsae." It was all Greek (not Korean) to me. I still think it sounds weird compared to tul but at least I know what it means now.

Similar things can be seen in some Japanese styles. I dare say that many people know what a kata is. But how many of them know what a seiho is?

Pax,

Chris