police use taser on 6 year old

[Baytor]

I hope this doesn't stir up another flame war, but here's another aticle about police tazing a kid. In this incident, a six year old boy was tazed after he started cutting himself with a large shard of glass. Link and transcirpt follows.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138395,00.html

MIAMI — Police used a stun gun on a 6-year-old boy in his principal's office because he was wielding a piece of glass and threatening to hurt himself, officials said Thursday.

The boy, who was not identified, was shocked with 50,000 volts on Oct. 20 at Kelsey Pharr Elementary School.

Principal Maria Mason called 911 after the child broke a picture frame in her office and waved a piece of glass, holding a security guard back.

When two Miami-Dade County police officers and a school officer arrived, the boy had already cut himself under his eye and on his hand.

The officers talked to the boy without success. When the boy cut his own leg, one officer shocked him with a Taser (search) and another grabbed him to prevent him from falling, police said.

He was treated and taken to a hospital, where he was committed for psychiatric evaluation.

"By using the Taser, we were able to stop the situation, stop him from hurting himself," police spokesman Juan DelCastillo told The Miami Herald.

 

[bignick]

see...i think this was an acceptable use...unlike the other issue on this board where the 9 year old girl was already handcuffed...

here, he was endangering himself and rather try to fight with him over it and cause further injury to himself or the officers, the taser offered a another way out

 

[MJS]

Interesting thread!! Coincidentally, there was a similar thread to this over on Budoseek, where the police used a taser on an elderly woman. It certainly generated some very interesting reading.

I'll give my .02 on this. There are quite a few things that we need to take into consideration before we can get an accurate picture of what really happened.

A- We can't take everything that the paper says as what really happened.

B- Are we hearing all sides of the story? Police, NEWS, witnesses, Fire/EMS.

C- We need to know the policies/procedures of that PD, as they vary from state to state/town to town.

In todays world, where law suits are happening often, many PD's have resorted to using less-lethal weapons over more lethal. Items such as a Taser, pepperball gun, bean bag gun, or rubber bullets are a preferred choice over guns and batons.

Mike

 

[Oak Bo]

Thanks for the post Baytor!
That was an interesting read :karate:
If what was written is true, I think it was handled the right way.

:asian:

 

[Baytor]

I also think they handled it as well as they could have for the situation. It also looks like the dept. is backing his decision, which is always nice for the officer. I wonder what it was that set the kid off, though. There must be some sort of history with this kid, people don't normally just snap, there is a build up. Hopefully, he gets the help he needs.

 

[Baytor]

http://www.wftv.com/news/3913217/detail.html

Another article about the incident. Here's part of the article. It includes further justification used by the police for their decision, as well as criticism from a former judge. I stand by my earlier statement that the cops made the best decision they could have in a crappy situation.

"By using the Taser, we were able to stop the situation, stop him from hurting himself," police spokesman Juan DelCastillo told The Miami Herald. "Sure he could have been tackled and maybe injured, maybe his arm broken or maybe that glass could have cut him in a critical area."


Retired Juvenile Judge Frank Orlando called the incident "ridiculous."


"It just sounds excessive to me to Taser gun a 6-year-old when everyone else around there were adults," said Orlando, who now runs a law clinic on youth law at Nova Southeastern University. "They couldn't subdue a 6-year-old? Must have been a pretty big kid."


Police wouldn't say how big the child was. The case was under review.

 

[MJS]

Retired Juvenile Judge Frank Orlando called the incident "ridiculous." [/b]


"It just sounds excessive to me to Taser gun a 6-year-old when everyone else around there were adults," said Orlando, who now runs a law clinic on youth law at Nova Southeastern University. "They couldn't subdue a 6-year-old? Must have been a pretty big kid."


Police wouldn't say how big the child was. The case was under review.

The judge doesnt have a clue IMO!!! He obviously is not looking at the entire picture. In addition, he wasnt there! Therefore, its easy to sit back and say, "Well, I'd do this, or I'd do that!" Yeah, ok...under no stress, we can 'What if' this all day, but add a little stress in, and the entire situation changes!

Mike

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Well, this brings up the issues of how dangerous delivering such an electrical shock to the very young or very old might do.

That issue aside, and assuming the taser is safe for a 6-year-old (???), I can understand why they would want to quickly subdue the child - it sounds like he was already cutting himself up with the glass pretty badly.

But tasers on a 6-year-old... I just wonder what that does to such a small body.

 

[Lisa]

Retired Juvenile Judge Frank Orlando called the incident "ridiculous."

"It just sounds excessive to me to Taser gun a 6-year-old when everyone else around there were adults," said Orlando, who now runs a law clinic on youth law at Nova Southeastern University. "They couldn't subdue a 6-year-old? Must have been a pretty big kid."


Police wouldn't say how big the child was. The case was under review.

Classic case of an armchair quarterback swearing at the television set when his team isn't winning. He wasn't there, he didn't live it, quoting him in the newspaper just because he is a judge and a supposed respected member of the community just inflames the situation and sells more papers. IMO

 

[MJS]

A little info on Tasers that I got from the net.

A person hit with an ADVANCED TASER will feel dazed for several seconds. Recovery is fast and the effects stop the very instant that the M26 shuts off. Some will experience critical response amnesia and others will experience tingling sensations afterwards. The pulsating electrical output causes involuntary muscle contractions and a resulting sense of vertigo. It can momentarily stun or render immobilized. Yet, the ADVANCED TASER’s low electrical amperage and short duration of pulsating current, ensures a non-lethal charge. Moreover, it does not cause permanent damage or long-term aftereffects to muscles, nerves or other body functions.

How can the Taser be so effective yet non-injurious?
The Taser does not depend upon impact or body penetration to achieve its effect. Its pulsating electrical output interferes with communication between the brain and the muscular system, resulting in loss of control. However, the Taser is non-destructive to nerves, muscles and other body elements. It simply affects them in their natural mode. More importantly, no deaths have ever been directly attributed to the TASER .

Does the taser affect the heart or a cardiac?
The Taser’s output is well below the level established as "safe" by the federal government in approving such devices as the electrified cattle fence. In a medical study of the Model XR 5000Ô electronic stun gun, Dr. Robert Stratbucker of the University of Nebraska Medical Center confirmed that the T-Wave does not interrupt the heartbeat or damage a pacemaker. Any modern pacemaker is designed to withstand electrical defibrillator pulses that are hundreds of times stronger than the Taser’s output. The AIR TASER current of 0.3 joules is well below the 10-50 joule threshold above which cardiac ventricular fibrillation can occur.

Isn't high voltage lethal?
High voltage, in itself, is not dangerous. One can receive a 25,000-volt shock of static electricity from a doorknob on a dry day without harm. The physiological effect of electrical shock is determined by: the current, its duration, and the power source that produces the shock. The typical household current of 110 volts is dangerous because it can pump many amperes of current throughout the body indefinitely. By contrast, the Taser power supply consists of an alkaline 9-Volt battery that is capable of supplying less than three watts of electrical power for a few minutes.

Range: 15 feet.

Optimum Performance: 7 - 10 ft.

Backup if probes miss: If 2 launched probes missed, there are 2 stun electrodes on the front of the unit which can be used as a stun gun. Automatic Impulse Regulation: Once the probes are launched, unit stays active for 5 seconds to keep target reliably down.

Thickness of Clothing: Up to 2 inches of cumulative clothing, even leather jackets.

Recovery Time: Varies by individual -- generally several minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------

Here is some info. regarding OC or pepper spray

How do pepper sprays work?
The active ingredient in pepper sprays is oleoresin capsicum, commonly referred to as OC. OC is a natural, oily, resin-like substance derived from hot peppers, the same peppers used to "heat up" spicy foods.Pepper sprays induce an almost immediate burning sensation of the skin and a burning, tearing, and swelling of the eyes. If spray is inhaled, the respiratory tract becomes inflamed resulting in a swelling of the mucous membranes lining the breathing passages and temporarily restricting breathing to short, shallow breaths.

Mike

 

[MA-Caver]

Ya, agreed that none of us here were there so armchair quarterbacking is all we can do if we want to speculate on what "I would've done" kinda of talk.
IMO tasing a child is WRONG WRONG WRONG! A teenager sure... but we're talking about a child that is still (relatively speaking) a baby. I'm thinking of long term effects physicalogically and phychologically.
I'm ticked about it overall. Excessive use of force IMO. I'm sorry but I'm sticking with that. :asian:
The kid was obviously disturbed enough that he gets the idea to start cutting himself and actually going near his eye. Makes you wonder what the hell is going on at HOME that makes the kid, a child, a baby go to such extremes?
What did the principal say to the kid to set him off? Why was he sent to the principal's office in the first place?
Too many questions not enough answers. But they should start the investigation at home or at least end there either way.
:angry: :miffer: :ticked: :disgust: and ultimately

 

[MJS]

Good points MACaver. The child is obviously showing abnormal signs, and this is the time to investigate it, not when the kid is 23 and has possibly done something worse than what hes already done.

As for the use of force...again, we don't know the policies of that dept. so its hard to judge what was excessive and what was not.

I think it would be interesting to hear some views on what we would have done, had we been in that situation. This is not intended to steer the thread in a different direction, but seeing that the use of force debate seems to be lurking on the horizon, I think its an important part of the discussion. Again, it'll be hard because we were not there, and we might start sounding like the judge they interviewed.

IMO, trying to talk the boy down wouldn't work. He appears to already be past the point of talking. Attempting to grab him could be dangerous due to the fact that he was holding a piece of glass and had already cut himself. In this case, the situation appears to be getting worse rather than better. Would OC spray be a better option? Maybe/maybe not. Keep in mind that there are other people in the room that have the potential of being effected by it as well.

Mike

 

[OULobo]

A little info on Tasers that I got from the net.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Here is some info. regarding OC or pepper spray

Mike

Serious question, did you get that info from the Taser manufacturers? I tried to do some web research on the effects of tasers, but every comment and study I found was related to a study that the taser manufacturers performed.

I have been threatened by a 7 year old with a knife and intent, and it wasn't much to walk up and take it from him. I would guess that he might have given me a little bit of a gash (he didn't), but it didn't take much to just walk up, grab his wrist, take the blade and start swatting his rump. I have to imagine that an officer in good shape could do atleast as much to a younger child.

 

[Lisa]

Well put MACaver... this is a baby we are talking about and my heart hurts for him. The pain he must have been feeling to be so enraged to do something like that. Lets hope that he can get the help he needs to find peace. Lets hope this is the last time he ever feels desperate enough to weild broken glass at someone.

 

[Cruentus]

Without having all the facts, this sounds like good police work to me.

btw...hilarious avatar, OULobo. :uhyeah:

 

[MJS]

Serious question, did you get that info from the Taser manufacturers? I tried to do some web research on the effects of tasers, but every comment and study I found was related to a study that the taser manufacturers performed.

In the search field I typed in "Effect of a taser on the human body" and looked at the results from there, and yes, you're correct, it does appear that the info. is from the mfgr.

My intent was to just provide some info on the taser, not to justify that it was definately the best weapon to be used.

I guess though, that even with the less lethal weapons, an injury still occurs. Then again, look at the girl who got hit in the eye with a rubber bullet while in the streets of Boston during the game. She died from that injury.

Mike

 

[Tgace]

Child stopped from harming himself, nobody else injured (any further), other than the tool that was used, things could have been worse.

Either the Taser is a non/less lethal tool that can be used on all resistors or it isn't, dependent on the departmental policy. The use of force on a subject isnt qualified by age only by what the person "reasonably" believes to be necessary. Was this reasonable? I suppose it depends on how you view the taser. If there was a weapon that could physically immobilize a subject with no pain or risk of injury than we could use it on everybody. Every use of force on a person contains some risk. Percentage wise, the taser seems to be statistically "safe".

 

[Tgace]

Then again, look at the girl who got hit in the eye with a rubber bullet while in the streets of Boston during the game. She died from that injury.

Mike

Actually, she was hit in the eye by an OC projectile fired by an FN 303. A "pepperball" type weapon that fires a paintball type projectile with a plastic stabilizer. Its significantly higher velocity gives it more range and "pain compliance" than the pepperball system. And obviously more risk as well.

 

[MJS]

Actually, she was hit in the eye by an OC projectile fired by an FN 303. A "pepperball" type weapon that fires a paintball type projectile with a plastic stabilizer. Its significantly higher velocity gives it more range and "pain compliance" than the pepperball system. And obviously more risk as well.

Ahh....thanks for the clarification!! :asian: Now, are the pepperballs designed to be fired directly at the person, or towards the ground near the target? I would think at the ground if you were using it to disperse a large crowd.

Mike

 

[Tgace]

Ahh....thanks for the clarification!! :asian: Now, are the pepperballs designed to be fired directly at the person, or towards the ground near the target? I would think at the ground if you were using it to disperse a large crowd.

Mike

Direct fire actually, the pain causes an intake of breath that "gets ya" with the OC. As well as gaining compliance/dispersal in and of itself. There are water filled and UV paint filled projectiles as well. Ideally you should be aiming at the bottom of the ribs down to minimize hitting the face. Pepperball is not supposed to cause eye damage, but I wouldnt want to test it.

If somebody is in a car, closet, room and you cant see them, you can fire at the walls or ceiling to disperse the payload. The powder disperses much better with gravity downward than upward from the ground. They are only .68 cal. balls after all.