Please help me understand

[Ken Morgan]

OK....don't tell Bob I sent you over there but....go to the Kendo World Forums http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/forum.php?
and ask about sword in Albany.

There are only a small handful of people here at MT who practice sword of any kind. Over there, everyone practices sword.

 

[kegage]

Hey Joe,
I am one of the “odd men out” on this forum. I am you thirty five years ago. I had then an intense and insatiable interest in the Japanese sword arts and seemingly no outlet, or place to learn. I still have that I intense and insatiable interest, but I found a way. If you want to get an idea of my experiences, I posted an overview of my history in the thread on “A Book Of Five Rings”(Gorin No Sho) in the Japanese Martial Arts - General section. I found a way, but I had to do it almost totally on my own. That being said, I won’t advocate doing what I had to do unless you have no other choice. I had to find, study, evaluate, and interpret all the information I could, and then try to apply it in a manner that seemed correct and made sense. As I have said before, a tough thing to do in the late seventies. There was an absolute dearth of creditable information, and there is so much more available now. Find a school if you can, but if you don’t, don’t let it deter you from learning all you can, and there is a lot of information out there to be absorbed. Langenschwert is correct about the similarities in the use of the sword around the world. However, never allow yourself to be under the delusion that you are ever completely and properly learning the art. You can learn kata and cutting techniques via, videos, DVDs, and books, practice them thousands and thousands of times, and never truly understand the philosophical aspects of the art, or experience, or “feel” the subtitles of the art which can only really be learned through combined understanding of the details and subtitles of movement, breathing, perception, and mental discipline. Even though I have almost no formal training, I know I would have had developed a better understanding and knowledge of these things with a teacher, than the years and years more it took me to do so on my own.



STANDBY FOR RANT, Accessing rant, loading………


On the comments and question of whether by training on your own you should be considered a martial artist, my humble opinion, forthwith, follows. Formal training or no, if you are seriously engaged in training in a martial discipline, and are, at every opportunity to do so, trying to garner, learn and implement any and all creditable information you can in that training, you ARE a martial artist.
I have seen several comments on this forum, and other places, that indicate that if someone trains in a manner that is not officially sanction by a formally recognized authority, that person is not a martial artist. I agree there are those that want to call themselves martial artist that make no attempt to learn or apply any sense of form or technique to their training, and whether they deserve the title of martial artist can be considered doubtful at best. I also understand that whether or not some one is a martial artist, or even if a particular style is or is not a martial art, can be very much according to the dictates of the individual, but there seems to be an overall disregard and dismissal of those that train in, or do something differently. Two examples would be the attitudes I have seen regarding WMA groups from many oriental style martial artists, and the current attitudes regarding that of the SCA I see from many WMA people. I won’t go into the why and wherefores of these attitudes because of how long it would take. In the former, they were almost completely dismissed in total until the popularity of WMA began to increase. Only then did there seem to be a general sense of acceptance. In the case of the of the SCA, even though it has been engaging and training in its medieval style martial arts activities for over forty years, decades longer that most WMA groups, there are still many WMA people and groups that refuse to allow the SCA martial arts status. I know there are those that may want to discuss the details and arguments for or against my evaluations of these examples, but I really don’t intend to start a discussion. They are merely examples.
On a personal note, I know there are those that may have difficulty recognizing me, and the way I train, as a legitimate martial artist and martial arts style. I readily accept any and all constructive criticisms and advice as I know there are major gaps and understanding in aspects of my training. However, I reject any general dismissals regarding my training and experience because I know the intensity and the degree to which I have dedicated myself over the years to obtain, evaluate, and use the knowledge I have in as correct a manner as possible. This is why most of my posts have been as long and detailed as they have. I know I have credibility issues, and these are my meager attempts to dissuade them. (Most of my friends will tell you it is more because I am just long winded.)
I am now going to attempt to use an analogy to validate my point. I know some may take great offense to my use of this analogy, but I do not intend to insinuate that my skills are comparable; they are not in any way, and I am not insinuating in any way that am attempting to do something similar. I merely use it as a means to state that there are comparisons between history and the manner in which I have conducted my training.
Statements have been made in this thread and the thread on “Full Contact” Sparring With Rigid Materials” regarding the manner in which the many of the Koryu schools began. The essential points are that samurai would learn what they could from others that came before them, fight in battles and duals, and in doing so would learn the lessons necessary to be victorious and survive. Having done so, they opened schools and began to teach others the lessons they learned. In many ways my training has, in the most basic sense, emulated this history. While, because of the safety rules of the SCA, I have never had to worry about actually being killed. Minor injuries are common and serious injury is always a possibility. The main points being that I also learned and used knowledge from those that came before me (primarily Musashi), I fought in battles and duals, learned the same type of lessons the samurai did, and yes, I teach those that wish to learn. No, I have not opened a school. The similarities being what they are, and even though some may consider my conclusion “absolutely outrageous and ridiculous”, if I am not considered a martial artist, or what I do a martial art style, then neither can the samurai cited.
In reality the above has nothing to do with the reasons I consider myself a martial artist and a kenjutsuka. The above is more a historical coincidence than anything else. and has never been a factor in determining how I have trained now, or in the past. I consider myself a martial artist and a kenjutsuka because I know the intensity of the dedication I have had over the years to learning, and applying what I had learned in my training.

END OF RANT, Disengaging from Rant Mode, Are You Sure You Want Stop Ranting? YES….NO, Click NO to continue rant, Click YES disengage…..YES


Sorry folks, I really didn’t mean for it to go on this long.


Kevin[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

[Ken Morgan]

Folks, one point I'd like to make about the seriousness here about sword arts of any style...

It's a hobby

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Joe,

I'm going to take this back to the original post, and see what we can get from that. Some of this will be a repeat of things that other members have already stated, but that can be a good thing. Let's see how we go, shall we?

Hi, New posting member but, read allot of your information presented in here but, still have a question. This really is not a, what sword to purchase question, well kinda anyway.
Please excuse any improper descriptive wording as I am new to this interest.

Not knowing the correct terminology is fine. You pick that up over time, and some schools will have a greater amount of used terminology than others, so there's no issue there. What I'd like to focus on here is you mentioning that this is a new interest for you. How new are we talking? And what other martial art experience do you have (if any)? I note that on your profile it mentions Kendo, can I assume that from your posting here that is more an interest based not on experience?

What I'm looking for here....

I am amazed by and interested in Samurai, Japan, and especially the history about both. I am NOT interested in cutting but, am interested in the Iaido Kata. I am trying to gain as much info and want to start practicing this form, mostly for the history but, also to gain something too. (not really sure what yet, maybe peace, relaxation????? it hasn't come to me yet, hopefully it will as I understand more).

Okay, let's break this down.

You are interested in the Samurai, my question would be what does that mean to you? Exactly what the Samurai were changed over time, so being interested in them from a martial perspective may need clarification.

As to the concept of Iai, there are Koryu systems that include it, with the Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu having a fair amount of their syllabus centred around this aspect, and the concept being popularised by Hayashizaki Shigenobu, whose teachings live on in a number of systems, such as Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and Muso Shinden Ryu, as well as these systems being highly influential in "modern" Seitei Iai.

Each of these are similar, yet different. For example, there are members of Koryu who also train in Seitei Iai, and enjoy and get benefits from both. Then again, there are members of Koryu who are rather anti-Seitei for a number of reasons. As for what you will gain from the training, well, that will be for you to find. But I will say that if you are thinking about such benefits as this (peace, relaxation?????) then you are romanticising the concept, which is taking you from the reality. These arts can be highly demanding, in terms of commitment and so on, so don't look for the benefits until you know what the training actually is and consists of.

ANYWHO. To start, when reading these forums I see "always ask the advice of your dojo or sensei." In my area, upstate NY, after looking through the whole WWW, can't locate any one in my area who teaches this art. So, trust me I would go to him or her for advice, training and so on.

Okay, it's been said, but if you want to learn this, you need a teacher. All respect to kegage and his approach, but unfortunately what he does is not what would be considered Japanese swordsmanship. There are superficial similarities, but without actual education in the field, it isn't Japanese swordsmanship.

In terms of not having a school nearby, there is a particular school of swordsmanship that I am incredibly interested in, however the only group and teacher for this system in Australia is in Perth, which is the opposite side of the country to me. As a result, I am looking to travel over to them at regular intevals, and hopefully begin a study group to train with between visits. I have been given an invitation to join them in June when their Head Instructor is out from Japan. To put this in perspective for you, the distance between Melbourne and Perth is similar to the distance between New York and Colorado (about 60 miles out, actually). I already have many reference materials for this system, but without learning it, I can't learn it. So my choice is to go over to Perth, or not learn it.

I have a bokken but, it just does not give me what I want, the proper drawing and re-sheathing, so on.. I do have to self teach myself and so my question is not about a particular sword but, why can't an inexpensive iaito be used in this gentle art?
I always see responses here that say "that sword would not be allowed in my dojo" and for certain arts, Iaido, do NOT understand this.

There is far too much subtlety when it comes to the Iai concepts that you cannot "self teach" it. At all. The fact that you don't understand why people would not allow certain (cheap, badly made) weapons in a dojo only shows that you cannot self learn this.

Unless I am well off based here the Kata's are not really,,,,,,,, can't find the words so, ,,,dangerous to yourself or others around. Seems in this instance and 200 dollar practical sword (UNSHARPTENED) would work out.

Yep, well off base. In terms of Iai kata, there are any number of things that can go wrong, from the tsuka splitting through to accidentally stabbing yourself (yes, even with an unsharpened sword). The following is a thread from SFI which shows what can happen even when training in solo Iai kata. Fair warning, there are some graphic images of post-operative injuries here, so be aware of that.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=53083&perpage=25&highlight=&pagenumber=1

I do understand if I wanted to go further with something else, maybe cutting or 2 person kata, safety is a concern and more proper equipment would be needed.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated, and PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, and I hope you all understand where I heading on this.
Thanks, Joe

You cannot learn what you want to learn without a teacher. Period. A bokken is ideal to start with, and most Iai schools will actually start you with one anyway. But if there is no school near you (that you are able/willing to travel to), then accept that you, at least right now, cannot learn this. Blunt, but there it is.

 

[Joe1957]

First Thanks to all who have come to this thread to offer advice. I greatly appreciate it.

Chris. My only Martial Arts experience, formal training, was many years ago when Kung Fu was big among kids. I studied Okinawan Karate in my teens and did advance to brown belt, which at that time had no other meaning to me other than, wow, I must be cool. No history, I hated history as a teen and thats something I do regret now.
THAT WAS THEN.

Now, many years later, and MUCH more mature, I have always had interest in the Martial arts through out life. I am not a person who gains interest from an object (this case a sword) but, gain interest in an art a way of life.

So much on my mind my thoughts may be brief.

Being interested in Samurai, I believe its more a way of life that CAUGHT my interest.

The rest or most of my information, yes comes from the Internet and sites like this. I no other terms, this is a learning process just started so questions like "why wouldn't a dojo allow an in-expensive sword" come more from not understanding and gaining knowledge than just wanting a cheap way out to jump into something. (please, trying to explain myself and it may not come out right at times).

I do understand all the responses here and do take them to heart, but, I also will continue my journey the way I can.
Right now it may only be by learning more of the history of the art, arts or ways. I am cool with that, cause that's me.

So bottom line, I have had an interest for may years and would like to move forward even if its at a snails pace, learn the right ways, be safe and maybe from somewhere the peace will come, even if its just from a book and a quiet night of reading, although I am in my 50's, early 50's I am in no hurry.

Again, Thanks for so many replies, that's why I posted the question, for HONEST input.

Thanks, Joe.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hey Joe,

When you say "the way of life" of the Samurai, again I'm going to ask what you mean by that. Depending on the period you're talking about, the samurai were the noble family members, serving on elder and higher ranking families. Or they were pragmatic warriors who distinguished themselves. Or they were born to the station (class) in life. Or they were beaurocrats. What they most likely weren't, however, were the highly romanticised popular image that seems to have come to represent them, which was very much applied after the fact (in many cases, hundreds of years after the fact). This is similar to the incomplete (and rather inaccurate) image that Forrest Whitaker's character in Ghost Dog has, taking the Hagakure as a bible (for the record, it was far from that. Hagakure was written/dictated by an elder samurai who served as a beaurocrat, never experiencing the battles and sacrifices that he idealised in his tome. Add to that his disagreeing with a number of more common, or popular thoughts of his contemporaries, and you have a book written out of wistful idealism, removed from the realities of his station, and far from representative of the majority of Samurai).

So does the way of life of a beaurocrat appeal to you?

If you're interested in these aspects, you can learn the history from books, you can try to get a "feel" for the individual Ryu-ha from books such as the Koryu Books publications, and so on, but you cannot learn to use a sword without a real teacher. Hopefully you read through the thread I linked in the last post, and saw the pictures there. Don was incredibly experienced with bladed items, but did not have formal training in Iai. The result was not very nice.

With regard to questions such as "why wouldn't an Iaido dojo allow these cheaper swords", really the way to answer that is with experience. The instructor should have experience enough to know what they allow or don't, typically the student's don't. So the first thing is to listen to the instructors advice, as they are speaking from experience. As you continue and train you develop enough understanding to be able to make the decision for yourself. But, other than to say "these ones tend to have loose fittings, with the ito slipping, the mekugi being unstable, the same being imitation, the menuki being in the wrong position" and so on, there is little we can do from this remote position. It needs to be felt and understood. I'll give you two examples.

A few months back I ordered a shipment of bokken from Japan. I haven't seen anything I like in Australia for about 15 years now, so I don't tend to buy locally, and I trust my Japanese supplier (I have some wonderful custom-made items from them). I took orders from my students for those that wanted them at the time as well. One of my students, when she took possesion of her bokken, wasn't convinced that it was worth twice the price of the ones that some of her friends (and fellow students) had bought themselves. So I had her hold her bokken, take note of the feel, the weight, the balance etc, then put it down and pick up one of the other guy's ones. She didn't quite "feel" it yet. So I had her put his down, and pick hers up again.... and the look across her face said it all. The difference, once it was detected and felt, was gigantic. And that was just a wooden sword.

Another student of mine was expressing interest in more of a specialisation in sword, so I invited him to a Gun's and Militaria Show that happened to be on that weekend. We went around the show for a few hours, and I used the displays to discuss what to look for in a sword, which were the "proper" ones, which were the cheap and nasty imitations, and so on. A few weeks later he went to Sydney, and told me that he had picked up an Iaito while he was there. As he is a member of an Iaido school (not training in Iai there, but it's the school we use for a Koryu Kenjutsu study group), he brought it in for our next session. He was showing it to one of the other guys before I got there (an Iai practitioner as well as part of our study group), but when I approached it was hidden from me. When I got him to bring it back out, this thing was so obviously a low-end wall-hanger that my advise to him was to never bother taking the thing out of it's scabbard (not going to dignify even that with the term "saya"....), it had no business being called a "sword". Oh, and he was also advised to check with me, or one of the Iai guys before spending money like that again....

A lack of experience leads to bad choices in your purchases. And the only way to get that experience is to actually get that experience. It doesn't come from books, I'm afraid. Or the internet.

If you're interested in the histories of any of these systems, or what makes one different from another, that's great. Bear in mind, though, that such learning will be rather abstract until you start training, and if you don't have a teacher, you haven't started training. Unfortunately, it really is that simple.

 

[Tanaka]

Folks, one point I'd like to make about the seriousness here about sword arts of any style...

It's a hobby

I think it is whatever you make it.

 

[Joe1957]

Hey Joe,



So does the way of life of a beaurocrat appeal to you?

Also the way, from what I understand, their rise to power. The life of a bureaucrat? No. Now you have me thinking about Bureaucrat's in general, mostly here which think they have power to control. I don't like that. Its their way or nothing else, well we have ways of changing that, but in times, Japanese didn't. Yes, from what I read on Japanese history, that's the way it was in past times there. I guess whats of interest is the forming of the Japanese government and how the Samurai had from what I see, a major part of that. How if your were not a part of this group, the restrictions you had on life there.
Also I see an honor they had in the rise of Japan. And yes, how some believe they dishonored also. Its an extremely interesting part of history, how things derived from culture but, I guess its that way everywhere.

A lack of experience leads to bad choices in your purchases. And the only way to get that experience is to actually get that experience. It doesn't come from books, I'm afraid. Or the internet.

If you're interested in the histories of any of these systems, or what makes one different from another, that's great. Bear in mind, though, that such learning will be rather abstract until you start training, and if you don't have a teacher, you haven't started training. Unfortunately, it really is that simple.

Understood, I know learning from a teacher, no matter what your into, is always better than trying, and most likely not completely understanding when going it on your own.

 

[jks9199]

Joe,
It's very simple. You can learn about the samurai lifestyle and history. You can imitate them, even, like Civil War reenactors or the Society for Creative Anachronism imitate and reenact according to their interests. But without proper teaching, you're going through the motions.

Civil War reenactors are big in my area, as you might expect. They don't wear polyester uniforms that look like the woolen uniforms; they wear wool. They don't use electric lights in old style lantern housings; they use oil lamps. And so on... Without proper training, you're going through the motions just like someone going to a Civil War reenactment in a polyester blended coatee with a flashlight is going through the motions.

Chris Parker has already said that there's a lot of subtleties that are just too easy to miss reading books and following videos. These can be things like a twist of the wrist that makes all the difference between stabbing yourself and safely swinging the blade. It's the difference between actually cutting and battering with the blade.

Keep hunting. I'm sure that there are schools you can find, even if it means attending a class once a month. If it's something you really want to do -- you can make it happen.

Or if simply playing games will satisfy you -- have fun. Just accept that that is all you are doing.

Also -- if you check out the stickied threads at the top of this forum, especially THIS one, you might find some of the answers about why cheap swords aren't good for anything but costumes.

 

[Langenschwert]

Hi Joe,

I notice that you said you're in your 50's. If you've saved enough over your working life, then use your JSA as a reason to travel! Many koryu (and other) practicioners travel hundreds of kilometers for training. My WMA teacher lives 300 km away, and I travel to see him whenever I can, or he comes here as he has family in my city. For my JSA studies, I will be travelling MUCH further. One of my former students (now a chapter head in his won right) brought back techniques from a practicioner in Germany. This kind of travel isn't unique to MA though:

Serious jazz musicians travel thousands of kilometers to study with the right people. There's a big difference between lessons at "Guitar World" and going to New York to study with Pat Martino. Likewise in some JSA. On the plus side, travelling is fun. Even when things go wrong, look at it like "I'm having an adventure". Works wonders.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Joe1957]

Hi Joe,

I notice that you said you're in your 50's. If you've saved enough over your working life, then use your JSA as a reason to travel! Many koryu (and other) practicioners travel hundreds of kilometers for training. My WMA teacher lives 300 km away, and I travel to see him whenever I can, or he comes here as he has family in my city. For my JSA studies, I will be travelling MUCH further. One of my former students (now a chapter head in his won right) brought back techniques from a practicioner in Germany. This kind of travel isn't unique to MA though:

Serious jazz musicians travel thousands of kilometers to study with the right people. There's a big difference between lessons at "Guitar World" and going to New York to study with Pat Martino. Likewise in some JSA. On the plus side, travelling is fun. Even when things go wrong, look at it like "I'm having an adventure". Works wonders.

Best regards,

-Mark

Thanks, yes, I am noticing and have noticed, NYC and Boston hold quite a few schools and what was mentioned earlier in this thread was maybe a once a month thing.
Emails have been sent and will follow up with a few calls.
Right now I am not even thinking about the equipment, now the quest is for a teacher. Joe

 

[Ken Morgan]

Unless you are time traveling back to Medieval Japan, it’s all a hobby. Some take it much more serious then others, some are interested in the nuances, some in the life style, some the budo itself, but it’s still just a hobby.

Given a choice of where and when I could live in history, no matter how fascinating I find medieval Japan, it would not be one of the places I would go to. Warfare, disease, starvation, being told what to do, when to do it, being a hairs breath away from being killed or told to kill ones self, life having little to no value. No, no thank you. Too many people view the Samurai through rose coloured glasses, just as chivalry in Europe was BS, many of the stories about the samurai are BS too.

Doesn’t mean I’ll stop training in JSA, or stop reading fiction and non fiction books about the time, but this time and place right now, is reality folks.

 

[Sukerkin]

Hard words but true ones, aye :nods:. The Bushido Code was as much served in the breach than the observance, just like the Chivalric Code it mirrored.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Oh BTW, (just to stir the pot Chris…) you can learn JSA by yourself from a book. IF you have experience!!!

Mark, Mark, Chris and me have trained for years, watching a video, reading a book, looking at photo’s we could figure out new kata and add in pieces newbies would never think of. Not the recommended way to do things, but with experience you CAN do it.

 

[Tanaka]

Unless you are time traveling back to Medieval Japan, it’s all a hobby. Some take it much more serious then others, some are interested in the nuances, some in the life style, some the budo itself, but it’s still just a hobby.

Given a choice of where and when I could live in history, no matter how fascinating I find medieval Japan, it would not be one of the places I would go to. Warfare, disease, starvation, being told what to do, when to do it, being a hairs breath away from being killed or told to kill ones self, life having little to no value. No, no thank you. Too many people view the Samurai through rose coloured glasses, just as chivalry in Europe was BS, many of the stories about the samurai are BS too.

Doesn’t mean I’ll stop training in JSA, or stop reading fiction and non fiction books about the time, but this time and place right now, is reality folks.

By literal definition of Hobby... some of those things you listed don't fit. I understand what you mean by Japanese swordsmanship isn't really going to be used much in current times. But the discipline behind some people who are into these martial arts might be downplayed by calling it a "hobby"

Kind of the same manner of someones serious practice of a religion being called a hobby.

 

[Sukerkin]

Oh BTW, (just to stir the pot Chris…) you can learn JSA by yourself from a book. IF you have experience!!!

Mark, Mark, Chris and me have trained for years, watching a video, reading a book, looking at photo’s we could figure out new kata and add in pieces newbies would never think of. Not the recommended way to do things, but with experience you CAN do it.

:faints:

then

:lol:.

{John Wayne voice}

Well, I guess it's time to go and fetch your sword, oh great one .

{/John Wayne voice}

 

[Sukerkin]

Tanaka, something being a hobby doesn't mean it's not taken seriously.

Computer gaming is a hobby of mine, just as is JSA. I have devoted thousands of hours to it over the years, teaching myself such subsidury things as how to set-up cars for racing along the way . Here's a link to one of my tuning 'garages' for the game Gran Turismo - imagine how much effort it took to do this lot:

http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=103928

I got so good at this via my hobby of playing games that friends of mine in the real world who have been racing drivers got me to set their cars up for them.

So, don't feel that calling something a hobby is to demean it in the slightest. It just means it's not the job you get paid for .

 

[Ken Morgan]

I’ve competed in bodybuilding shows, I’ve ran election campaigns, I’ve done many things where my dedication and devotion had to be 110%, but they were hobbies. I’ve spent thousands of dollars and practiced thousands of hours in the JSA, during practice, (for the most part), I try to have maximum intensity, but it’s a hobby.

Dude, you don’t even want to know my opinion on religion…..:angel:

 

[Tanaka]

I’ve competed in bodybuilding shows, I’ve ran election campaigns, I’ve done many things where my dedication and devotion had to be 110%, but they were hobbies. I’ve spent thousands of dollars and practiced thousands of hours in the JSA, during practice, (for the most part), I try to have maximum intensity, but it’s a hobby.

Dude, you don’t even want to know my opinion on religion…..:angel:

Lol as I am a pragmatic atheist. I'm sure I will be open to your opinion on religion.

I guess I just saw hobby as different meaning.

 

[Ken Morgan]

As a libertarian atheist, I’m sure we see many things the same way!