ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
Thanks for clarifying.
Sounds more like not enough skill development before sparring to me. When this happens you develop work arounds to cope. VT takes a long time to learn, it is essential to build it from the ground up with the correct amount of stress only
Who says this?
dudewingchun
Blue Belt
You are just full of **** to be honest. You literally just come on here to argue for fun.
I don't say anything that I don't believe.
You are a relatively new student of wing chun. Throwing you into sparring at this stage will just make you develop the means to survive sparring, rather than developing VT skill. This is because skill in VT is not easy to develop and takes a long time, whereas workarounds for sparring are easy to develop and don't require (difficult) VT skill
You know, most experienced WC and VT people would agree with what you are saying in a general sense. Yet the negative way you stated your opinion, assuming that this is the case here, without knowing the particulars, is what people find presumptuous and insulting.
You are saying that I am right but it's too hard for dudewingchun to be told the truth and I should have made something up to spare his feelings?
dudewingchun
Blue Belt
I get what you mean, but in this case you are wrong. Im not a new student getting thrown into sparring, you dont know anything about the context of how im training. Im not new to wing chun at all.
Juany118
Senior Master
I would actually say that he isn't saying that at all. Why? Because, and he can correct me if I am wrong (I don't mind being corrected by logic) @geezer is talking about "most" and saddly most means those who do not regularly train/spar with other styles. I once heard someone say "Wing Chun has become a Chi Sau culture" and to say that they meant that Wing Chun is becoming something that only knows how to fight other Wing Chun.
Sorry but to quote a movie "there is no special sauce". There is no perfect art that if you simply train it against someone with the same training you can beat all comers. You need to take the art you study and spar/compete with others who study something different, then adapt. The essence of combat..
Improvise, adapt, overcome
The minute anything interferes with but ONE of those three goals, you lose the fight irl, period.
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anerlich
Brown Belt
They are more often implying that the people concerned have become drill experts rather than fighting experts IMO.
Juany118
Senior Master
I would not object to that either. Maybe I am being a bit anal retentive, as I admit I can be but, imo at least, to be considered a "fighter" you must train, or at least consider, fighting other styles as well because if you drill vs fight someone using identical principles and techniques, if all things are equal (skill, size, fitness, experience isn't that but a drill) is there a difference between a drill and and fight?
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Okay, that's fine. It's just the impression I you were new to training from your posts (e.g. you talked a lot about looking around for wing chun teachers, finding Alan Orr, and how you hope one day to be an MMA fighter).
Fighting is a necessary part of the VT training process, but needs to be started at the correct time
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The timing of different parts of the training process is important in VT. If not done correctly then is detrimental
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No I'm saying that you may have a point in general, but since you don't know the dude, you are just spouting off as usual!
Just taking my general point and working from the information that dudewingchun has provided about his own wing chun experience.
There are some important skills that you just cannot learn through WC training but through sparring. In sparring, you learn how to control the distance. When your opponent punches at your head, you learn how to move your head side way, backward. You just don't learn "head dodging" through WC forms or WC sticky hand training. IMO, there is no such thing as "spar too early".
It's very difficult (if not impossible) to find a form that has "head dodging" in it. I only know 1 form because it's a "2 men form". The "head dodging" training is most missing in many CMA systems training. Lucky enough, if you spar long enough, you can figure it out all by yourself.
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ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
This is all a question of pedagogy. In most things of this nature: classical violin, calligraphy, watchmaking...
teachers develop methods and sometimes those methods become repeated and followed by others who attribute that method to them. People in those fields ultimately become successful or not on their own merits, not because of which method they learned under. No one buys a $1,000 watch because of who someone studied with or what tools they used. They do so if the result of that training produces something that speaks to them in that way.
Martial arts is one of the only fields where adherence to the method is equated to success on its own.
teachers develop methods and sometimes those methods become repeated and followed by others who attribute that method to them. People in those fields ultimately become successful or not on their own merits, not because of which method they learned under. No one buys a $1,000 watch because of who someone studied with or what tools they used. They do so if the result of that training produces something that speaks to them in that way.
Martial arts is one of the only fields where adherence to the method is equated to success on its own.
Depends on how you drill.
Juany118
Senior Master
I agree this happens and I think it's silly but I think I understand why this becomes an issue with TMAs in the civilian world. I say civilian world because I doubt say the Filipino Recon Marines care about the stick adherence to method in the use of PTK. Most people who study TMAs don't actually use them in anger or even "true" competition. In other endeavors the measure of success is found in the accomplishment of a goal of sorts. How accurate did you play the violin, did it move people? How accurate is the watch and how artful is the case?
Without an independent measure of success such as combat or competition one of the only measures of success is how well you adhere to method.
