Piecemeal Instruction

[dancingalone]

How many of you would consider letting students pick and choose what they learn from you? I am a goju-ryu karate instructor with a fairly 'traditional' curriculum, including hojo undo, kotikitae, kata, bunka, kumite, and kobudo.

That said, I've been given an opportunity to teach a regular corporate class with a significant amount of new students. The sponsor of this proposed course is a dan holder in another karate style and he loves my material, yet he feels due to the business setting of the class, I would need to drop elements I believe are core to what goju-ryu is. Namely sanchin and shime testing to begin with, but I imagine there other drills and practices named later.

The idea is to advance these business-class students through an approved curriculum, and if they want to learn the material left out, they could do so privately at my own dojo.

It's a good opportunity to spread my teacher's brand of karate, yet I'm wary about ceding control. It is somewhat disconcerting to think that the sponsor, although he would be one of my students, would have a significant amount of input into the class' content and organization.

 

[Omar B]

I don't like it man, taking stuff out of the art means you are not teaching the art but just disecting the corpse. If they "want" you and what you do then either teach it wholly or establish a different name/ranking system specifically for them because a student earning a belt in the "summarized system" is gonna be in for a rude awakening when they go into a real dojo.

So, I say if the money's good do it, but make them know that it's not the whole thing and learning as such puts them at a disadvantage to other students.

 

[repz]

Thats means he wants you to water it down. I dont see anything bad as though the students know that the intention is for them to grasp some basics in a crash course type of setting, and not the end all be all of karate.

This can help build good students who want to pursue karate further by digging deep into the core of your style in the future, sort of like a sneak peak kind of deal. People do this all the time in seld defense seminars, which are just changed events of certain basic techniques and not the full martial arts syllabus for their styles.

 

[Omar B]

Thats means he wants you to water it down. I dont see anything bad as though the students know that the intention is for them to grasp some basics in a crash course type of setting, and not the end all be all of karate.

This can help build good students who want to pursue karate further by digging deep into the core of your style in the future, sort of like a sneak peak kind of deal. People do this all the time in seld defense seminars, which are just changed events of certain basic techniques and not the full martial arts syllabus for their styles.

Exactly, if the money's good then do it. But make sure the students know that it's not the full experience as it were. It could be a nice feeder system for your main school.

I started Seido Karate at my private school as an after school program, it was the real curriculum but it acted as a great feeder system for the main school. I was doing karate at school 2 days a week and at the real dojo the other 3.

 

[punisher73]

As others have said, just make it clear to students that they are not learning some basic foundational stuff that make it effective. They are learning some basics and some ideas, but there are elements missing from it. They are going to have the spokes, but no hub with which to add structure and strength to the wheel.

 

[dancingalone]

Well the money would be nice, although just about anything would be nice since I charge my current students $25 a month. I've never had any significant income from teaching karate in the past, following the footsteps of my own teacher.

The proposed class would be one of those corporate "Wellness" classes. This company is offering a health care discount for employees who enroll and attend regularly an approved physical exercise course such as mine would be.

I imagine the student population would be VERY different from the types of students I currently have who are all fairly athletic already since that was a requirement I held in an effort to keep the training intensity and quality high. Given that a fair amount of the desk jockeys coming to this class would probably be out of shape, I'm sure the class will be much easier to participate in than the ones at my private dojo. That aspect doesn't bother me too much. It's more the thought that I am stripping out the essence of goju-ryu karate when I leave out core elements by design.

What is goju without sanchin? What is it without the intense body conditioning exercises? Many of the fighting applications in the system depend on having a strong and compliant body to wield effectively. Sure I can teach the usages that don't depend so much on strength but I'd be throwing away an awful lot an awful lot of the "Go" within Goju.

 

[K-man]

How many of you would consider letting students pick and choose what they learn from you? I am a goju-ryu karate instructor with a fairly 'traditional' curriculum, including hojo undo, kotikitae, kata, bunka, kumite, and kobudo.

That said, I've been given an opportunity to teach a regular corporate class with a significant amount of new students. The sponsor of this proposed course is a dan holder in another karate style and he loves my material, yet he feels due to the business setting of the class, I would need to drop elements I believe are core to what goju-ryu is. Namely sanchin and shime testing to begin with, but I imagine there other drills and practices named later.

I would have no problem omitting hojo undo, kotikitae, and kobudo.
People can get fit in their own time rather than wasting limited training time. Weapons I can take or leave but once again it is a question of spreading time too thinly.
If you are teaching Goju then Sanchin is non-negotiable. Sanchin is the core kata of Goju. As for too little 'go'. The older I get the more 'ju' I use.

 

[dancingalone]

If you are teaching Goju then Sanchin is non-negotiable. Sanchin is the core kata of Goju. As for too little 'go'. The older I get the more 'ju' I use.

Yeah, that's my thought too on sanchin. And it's true that we all are softer in application as we grow older, partly due to better understanding, partly due to necessity.

My issue is that my sensei taught me MANY self-defense techniques, some embodied in the kata, that really don't work well unless you're within a minimum band of strength compared to your attacker. Now whether that's optimal or not is up to discussion, but I'm in a quandary. I don't want to teach ineffective stuff (without body strengthening and conditioning) yet I am loath to give up a significant part of the lore taught to me.

 

[seasoned]

How many of you would consider letting students pick and choose what they learn from you? I am a goju-ryu karate instructor with a fairly 'traditional' curriculum, including hojo undo, kotikitae, kata, bunka, kumite, and kobudo.

That said, I've been given an opportunity to teach a regular corporate classwith a significant amount of new students. The sponsor of this proposed course is a dan holder in another karate style and he loves my material, yet he feels due to the business setting of the class, I would need to drop elements I believe are core to what goju-ryu is. Namely sanchin and shime testing to begin with, but I imagine there other drills and practices named later.

The idea is to advance these business-class students through an approved curriculum, and if they want to learn the material left out, they could do so privately at my own dojo.

It's a good opportunity to spread my teacher's brand of karate, yet I'm wary about ceding control. It is somewhat disconcerting to think that the sponsor, although he would be one of my students, would have a significant amount of input into the class' content and organization.

Your not watering down the system, just tailoring it to the setting in which you are teaching it. I am sure once you get started with the class they will like it a lot. With the interjection of GoJu principles as you teach, there will be many questions asked of you. At that time, as you stated, you could teach the more interested students privately at your dojo. In doing this, everyone gets what they want out of the class. As far as the sponsor, don't fear, it sounds like you have already won him over with your material, just don't give him private lessons.

 

[Flying Crane]

Personally, I wouldn't do it. It could be the first step down a slippery slope. Once you've gone down a bit further you've lost all control and there is no going back from it. The next thing you know, they will be demanding ranks, inspite of the deficient curriculum.

Do it right, or don't do it.

 

[dancingalone]

The next thing you know, they will be demanding ranks, inspite of the deficient curriculum.

That is indeed part of the package.

 

[Flying Crane]

That is indeed part of the package.

oooohhhhh. stormclouds on the horizon, my friend.

 

[terryl965]

I would simply explain that you teach a total system and by letting certain parts out it will leave gaps in one training. Remember all money is not good money in the long run. Remember money cannot provide positive feedback for yourself or your school.

 

[seasoned]

The next thing you know, they will be demanding ranks, inspite of the deficient curriculum.

Do it right, or don't do it.

That is indeed part of the package.

This presents a whole different problem. Rank is based on curriculum, curriculum, in your case is based on system, "a whole system". There is no way you can give rank, "rank in what"? The more I read, and after thinking about it it sounds like a can of worms to me.

 

[dancingalone]

Gentlemen, you're likely right. IF I take on this opportunity, I will need to let go of the cherished notion that I would be teaching goju-ryu karate. Perhaps I could strip it down, add in a lot of cardiovascular activity and call it 'Cardio Goju'. Or 'Goju Concepts' if I wanted a less fitness-oriented name.

Humph. A lot to think about.

 

[dbell]

From the word "go" (no pun intended!) you will not be teaching Goju-ryu Karate. You would be teaching something new, and would have to belt them in this "new art". It may be based, now loosely, on Goju-ryu, but it is not that.

If you are doing it for the money or to get your name out there, talk with your Sensei first, and get his buy in. If he thinks it is a good idea, talk with him about a name for the new system you will be teaching in and belting people in.

If the company wants you to teach them Goju-ryu, then they need to accept the whole package. Maybe minus SOME of the heavy exercising, but you need the rest!

 

[repz]

I wouldnt give them the same rank as your real students. And i would enforce this statement as much as you can, and continue to state this whenever appropriate.

Some strictly tma gojy ryu karatekas might be offended, but if you get a large base of students, then you will be doing something right, since karate has many flavors. I study a kyokushin derivative, and it was originally based on goju and shotokan, obviously its no longer goju, i was more interested in the full contact knockdown aspect of it, so from my perspective its ok to change focus, as tho you dont claim its the goju system, and it has some practicality (if thats what they want).

But if you have so many restrictions to what you teach, then give them belts to reflect this, and rank as well. Like 'basics karate rank'- as a title, and give them a belt that is similar to a junior belt for kids (whatever they are, since this seems like what level they are considering the restrictions put on the training).

Personally, I wouldnt do it. If i did, i wouldnt give rank and make it a self defense seminar kind of deal, or create a whole new syllabus outside the art and stop rank somewhere in the lower belts (like yellow being the highest, and if they ask for more belts, id say to join the real class to earn them).

 

[jks9199]

Might I suggest meeting with the students and seeing what they want? The other guy might be surprised...

I can't imagine how you could teach goju karate without Sanchin kata; it's one of the foundations of the art, as I understand it. You could certainly lessen the intensity (teach it, teach them how to practice it -- but you don't have to do more testing than is necessary to make sure their body alignment is correct, and let them decide how intensively they practice it, if that makes sense)... but you pretty much must teach it.

I'd be uncomfortable with someone dictating what I teach in that setting. It's one thing if a facility says "you can't teach weapons here" or "no full contact sparring" because of their insurance or rules. You can always teach those elements elsewhere... But to make fundamental changes to the curriculum? Not so good...

 

[harlan]

Interesting. We have 'wellness' where I work as well, and have been toying with something similar. The overarching purpose of the class is what you have to fit the Goju into. Sanchin is perfect, and you should make a case for it...breathing, alignment, meditation. Sanchin doesn't have to be performed hard to have benefit. Pick one or two katas with nice 'self-defense' bunkai that can be done by aging knees to plant the seeds, and if you also have solid kobudo, teach a bo kata. Kobudo is great for wellness (cardio).

Well the money would be nice, although just about anything would be nice since I charge my current students $25 a month. I've never had any significant income from teaching karate in the past, following the footsteps of my own teacher.

The proposed class would be one of those corporate "Wellness" classes. This company is offering a health care discount for employees who enroll and attend regularly an approved physical exercise course such as mine would be.

I imagine the student population would be VERY different from the types of students I currently have who are all fairly athletic already since that was a requirement I held in an effort to keep the training intensity and quality high. Given that a fair amount of the desk jockeys coming to this class would probably be out of shape, I'm sure the class will be much easier to participate in than the ones at my private dojo. That aspect doesn't bother me too much. It's more the thought that I am stripping out the essence of goju-ryu karate when I leave out core elements by design.

What is goju without sanchin? What is it without the intense body conditioning exercises? Many of the fighting applications in the system depend on having a strong and compliant body to wield effectively. Sure I can teach the usages that don't depend so much on strength but I'd be throwing away an awful lot an awful lot of the "Go" within Goju.

 

[dancingalone]

Might I suggest meeting with the students and seeing what they want? The other guy might be surprised...

I can't imagine how you could teach goju karate without Sanchin kata; it's one of the foundations of the art, as I understand it. You could certainly lessen the intensity (teach it, teach them how to practice it -- but you don't have to do more testing than is necessary to make sure their body alignment is correct, and let them decide how intensively they practice it, if that makes sense)... but you pretty much must teach it.

I'd be uncomfortable with someone dictating what I teach in that setting. It's one thing if a facility says "you can't teach weapons here" or "no full contact sparring" because of their insurance or rules. You can always teach those elements elsewhere... But to make fundamental changes to the curriculum? Not so good...

Unfortunately, it's not a question of asking the students what they want. As newbies, their thoughts would likely be malleable anyway. It's an issue of the company wanting to foster good exercise habits through a martial arts program while minimizing sensitive issues like too much body contact (sexual harassment or the prospect of someone getting hurt in sparring). The actual style of martial arts is probably immaterial to the company itself. I just happen to have a good reputation in the area as a teacher and so I was selected as a potential provider by the company in the course of their due diligence investigation.