Physical Response to Groin Shots

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenpo_cory
Well, the way I look at it this: If you got him in the "bent over" position and you don't give him time to react regardless of how he got there or what method you used to get him there, when all the fancy explanations are over he's still on the ground unconscious, and the job was done. How can anyone say, See my way was more effective cause his #456 cavity was pressed on his way to the floor right before I knocked him out? That's like comparing 2 moves that kill someone and saying that one of the moves are deadlier than the other. What is deadlier? Dead is dead. If what you used to bend him over with got him there without him retaliating and neutralized the threat without bodily harm to you, then it worked just as good as any other method produced to end in the same results.

In my view, you seem to make some very large general assumptions about what you "can" and cannot" do on a consistent basis at your level. Well that's the beauty of this medium where everyone with a keyboard and internet access is equal. You are obviously entitled to your experience and your opinion based on that experience. Perhaps when you have more than a few years of experience, and maybe when you make black, your conclusions may change. I know mine did. That's why there is a Tiger and a Dragon symbolically represented in the Chinese arts, and American kenpo where Mr. Parker often spoke of the differences even in his manuals. Good luck in your experiences tiger.

 

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Doc
In my view, you seem to make some very large general assumptions about what you "can" and cannot" do on a consistent basis at your level. Well that's the beauty of this medium where everyone with a keyboard and internet access is equal. You are obviously entitled to your experience and your opinion based on that experience. Perhaps when you have more than a few years of experience, and maybe when you make black, your conclusions may change. I know mine did. That's why there is a Tiger and a Dragon symbolically represented in the Chinese arts, and American kenpo where Mr. Parker often spoke of the differences even in his manuals. Good luck in your experiences tiger.

The tiger also happens to be my symbol in the Chinese zodiac. Just for the record sir, I respect your knowledge and in no way have I meant any disrespect to you or the system you teach.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by kenpo_cory
The tiger also happens to be my symbol in the Chinese zodiac. Just for the record sir, I respect your knowledge and in no way have I meant any disrespect to you or the system you teach.

I never thought otherwise sir. I have 12 just like you in my intermediate classes, and a couple high ranking black belts whose eyes I open from time to time. No one is made to feel they can't challenge my assertions, but the trick is being able to physically prove it to them. The difference is in person lessons of effectiveness can be seen in a different light, and I've never lost a student yet to another teacher.

"Keep Kickin" :asian:

 

[MaxRob]

Once again this depends on ones pain tolerance and genetic pain threshold, those of us with a a high to vey high pain threshold will say ouch but in a life threatening situation will defend ....
i refer with reget for my actions back some 40 yrs go which I still deeply regret but it was a do or die scenario,I took my girlfriend to a strip cabaret, the local ladies did not want her there, we moved out in fear and in front of our vehicle stood 3 tough ladies, we tried to talk with them,begging them to allow us to go,but they tried to claw hand my girlfriends Breast , I threw one down, defensively,the other out of my sight popped me with a groin kick.. Ouch.. Yes I bent back but instantly kicked her back blindly it stuck her right there".and she was stunned and shortly collapsed paralyzed to the floor, we ran for our life's sake to safety and got away before the men came with their knives to kill or main us.It was a close call!

 

[Tez3]

I think replying on an 11 year old thread is possibly a bit optimistic. :idunno:

 

[Doc]

Doc has repeatedly stated that groin shots do not make people bend forward at the waist. Over the six years I have trained I have noted two different responses to groin shots.

1. Light shots to the groin cause my opponent to bend his knees slightly, thrust his hips back and maintain his center of gravity bymoving his shoulders forward.

2. Hard shots to the groin cause the recipient to bend at the knees and drop straight to the floor. They then either gasp for breath and don't move or roll sideways to the floor groaning.

In neither case do they bend forward at the waist. I anticipate 2 other variables on the street.

A. The lack of cup may change the physiologic response.

B. An intoxicated or drugged opponent may not respond at all to a groin shot.

Do others have similar experiences to mine?

Jeff

There's an anatomical difference in describing a response to getting hit in the groin. The actual response is as we have discussed and as you have determined from your own experience, cup or no cup. In point of fact, you can produce the same results without contact of any kind as Proprioceptive Neural Muscular Facilitation and Startle Reflex takes over through the Autonomic Nervous System anyway. However if you drive a strike into a persons pelvic ring area hard enough, the person does not bend forward but instead their pelvis is being driven rearward which creates the "folding" type action which creates an illusion of "bending forward." But from an anatomical perspective, that is not "bending forward." "Startle Reflex" reactions are specific predicated on external stimuli. A good comparison can be seen in a good hard shove to the upper body. What happens is the upper torso is driven beyond the body's vertical plain of balance, and therefore the feet move to get back under you to maintain balance. So would you describe the push to the shoulder reaction as causing the feet to move backwards, or do the feet move in reaction to the forced position of the shoulders and NOT the shove itself?

Speaking in human anatomy terms using words like "reaction" is very specific. If you're going to study such things you can't use general interpretations unless all one seeks is general knowledge. For me to say the strike to the groin causes someone to "bend over" is like saying my brother wrecked my car and I now have to walk. The actual "reaction" to the accident is an immediate physical response.. Anything else is after-the-fact reactions to other chain of events.

Why does this matter? Because human anatomy is what we're talking about an how the body actually reacts in a martial environment teaches reams of information of offense and defensive postures that fortify and/or made the human body vulnerable to additional input. Understanding and having the ability to decipher Martial Posture is the difference between amateurs and professionals. Teachers and students. Professors and spectators. if one takes the time and has the desire to truly understand their craft, this matters. But in my world the terms "reflex" and "reaction" have specific meanings. Ask any engineer or doctor.

Thanks Doc.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think replying on an 11 year old thread is possibly a bit optimistic. :idunno:

That is what we are all about.

 

[watching]

Doc has repeatedly stated that groin shots do not make people bend forward at the waist. Over the six years I have trained I have noted two different responses to groin shots.

1. Light shots to the groin cause my opponent to bend his knees slightly, thrust his hips back and maintain his center of gravity bymoving his shoulders forward.

2. Hard shots to the groin cause the recipient to bend at the knees and drop straight to the floor. They then either gasp for breath and don't move or roll sideways to the floor groaning.

In neither case do they bend forward at the waist. I anticipate 2 other variables on the street.

A. The lack of cup may change the physiologic response.

B. An intoxicated or drugged opponent may not respond at all to a groin shot.

Do others have similar experiences to mine?

Jeff

I'v kicked someone in the groin in a real life situation and I remember clear as day, he bent over at the waist.

 

[marques]

Doc has repeatedly stated that groin shots do not make people bend forward at the waist. Over the six years I have trained I have noted two different responses to groin shots.

1. Light shots to the groin cause my opponent to bend his knees slightly, thrust his hips back and maintain his center of gravity bymoving his shoulders forward.

2. Hard shots to the groin cause the recipient to bend at the knees and drop straight to the floor. They then either gasp for breath and don't move or roll sideways to the floor groaning.

In neither case do they bend forward at the waist. I anticipate 2 other variables on the street.

A. The lack of cup may change the physiologic response.

B. An intoxicated or drugged opponent may not respond at all to a groin shot.

Do others have similar experiences to mine?

Jeff

I get angry and wild, because I know I only have a few short seconds to ‘solve the issue’ before that pain kills. Adrenaline, or something, may delay the painful feelings.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Depends very much on the person. I've tapped people in the groin and watched them drop to the ground, convinced they're going to die. I've tapped people and seen them ignore it. I've kicked people hard and see both responses (and everything in between). Personally, it just pisses me off. Yes, it hurts. No, it's not incapacitating.

 

[jobo]

Depends very much on the person. I've tapped people in the groin and watched them drop to the ground, convinced they're going to die. I've tapped people and seen them ignore it. I've kicked people hard and see both responses (and everything in between). Personally, it just pisses me off. Yes, it hurts. No, it's not incapacitating.

Agreed, the killer groin shot is a movie thing, it might put the guy off further attack, but if his has s bought in to tearing your head off, it won't stop him from trying to do so

 

[dvcochran]

Doc has repeatedly stated that groin shots do not make people bend forward at the waist. Over the six years I have trained I have noted two different responses to groin shots.

1. Light shots to the groin cause my opponent to bend his knees slightly, thrust his hips back and maintain his center of gravity bymoving his shoulders forward.

2. Hard shots to the groin cause the recipient to bend at the knees and drop straight to the floor. They then either gasp for breath and don't move or roll sideways to the floor groaning.

In neither case do they bend forward at the waist. I anticipate 2 other variables on the street.

A. The lack of cup may change the physiologic response.

B. An intoxicated or drugged opponent may not respond at all to a groin shot.

Do others have similar experiences to mine?

Jeff

Definitely the knowledge that you are about to be hit in the groin is going to elicit an action. If I step and thrust my hips back and don't bend at the waist, aren't I just stepping back? Doesn't the thrust usually create a bend of the waist?

 

[drop bear]

I'v kicked someone in the groin in a real life situation and I remember clear as day, he bent over at the waist.

Someone probably cops one at least once a class where I train.

 

[watching]

Someone probably cops one at least once a class where I train.

That's what cups are for!

 

[Ryan_]

I got hit in the groin earlier today, can confirm I bent over at the waist.

 

[drop bear]

Oldie but a goodie.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2271684705308