Most martial arts contain some sort of philosophy and emphasize a certain way of life. One of the things emphasized in many of the martial arts is patience. Its said that to succeed you must be patient. Personally I think that when it comes to patience, particularly patience where you wait for stuff, that patience can be a recipe for failure. Sometimes, I think that in order to succeed its best to not have the word patience in your vocabulary. Anybody who disagrees with me I would like to hear from you. Please do respond and challenge my point of view, I am open to challenges.
Philosophy in the martial arts
- Thread starter PhotonGuy
- Start date
Well, ive never heard that one before, but I dont doubt it exists.
Just disregard it, its babble. Most philosophy is anyway. The value assigned to such things comes more often than not from someones specified desire to learn whatevers being peddled, and so they seek it out.
Just disregard it, its babble. Most philosophy is anyway. The value assigned to such things comes more often than not from someones specified desire to learn whatevers being peddled, and so they seek it out.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I would discuss this but as you seem to have already made clear you do not believe in patience so I will not waste your time or mine
Patience? I think we need to be more specific here. Often, people attach ideas to words outside what they actually mean.
I believe that patience is actually very important. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I disagree with you. We may simply have different notions of what "being patient" means.
Patience for me is being persistent, and being in for the long haul. It's about patiently and diligently putting in the time to learn and refine what I'm learning - even when what I'm learning is very basic and not so "interesting" to practice - or very difficult and time consuming to learn. Occasionally, this also means "not getting ahead of yourself," or more accurately, just knowing when you need to work on building the foundation of the house before you get too carried away with the interior decorating. That doesn't mean that one shouldn't be ambitious or dive in the deep end on the occasion -- I'm quite a fan of that, and it's important to get as much exposure as you can to reality, but you also need to keep your perspective while doing so, and focus on the fundamentals before getting caught up in the details. Very often, I find that my questions are best answered as time passes and my skill and understanding grows.
Now, here's where I might seem to contradict myself, and probably where you are getting caught up on the idea of "patience." There's a big difference between being proactively patient, and being passively patient. I'll use another one of my hobbies as an example; learning foreign languages. The biggest mistake that I see most language learners make is that they just passively attend classes and do text book exercises, and expect to magically "become fluent" some-day. They don't make much effort to go out and use the language in every way that they can; they just stay within the artificially constructed environment of the classroom. Languages are much, much too broad to go about learning them in this way. You have to be proactive, and use your skills. A lot. Even when you don't have them yet. You have to sit there with a dictionary, reading any and everything you can until you begin to expand your vocabulary. You have to watch movies and turn off the subtitles. You have to start conversing with people, no matter how bad you are, and how many mistakes you make, until you're able to do so more and more naturally. Eventually, you have to stop studying a "foreign" language and start becoming familiar with and accustomed to your second language and culture. And that requires quite a bit of "proactive" patience and diligence!
I believe that patience is actually very important. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I disagree with you. We may simply have different notions of what "being patient" means.
Patience for me is being persistent, and being in for the long haul. It's about patiently and diligently putting in the time to learn and refine what I'm learning - even when what I'm learning is very basic and not so "interesting" to practice - or very difficult and time consuming to learn. Occasionally, this also means "not getting ahead of yourself," or more accurately, just knowing when you need to work on building the foundation of the house before you get too carried away with the interior decorating. That doesn't mean that one shouldn't be ambitious or dive in the deep end on the occasion -- I'm quite a fan of that, and it's important to get as much exposure as you can to reality, but you also need to keep your perspective while doing so, and focus on the fundamentals before getting caught up in the details. Very often, I find that my questions are best answered as time passes and my skill and understanding grows.
Now, here's where I might seem to contradict myself, and probably where you are getting caught up on the idea of "patience." There's a big difference between being proactively patient, and being passively patient. I'll use another one of my hobbies as an example; learning foreign languages. The biggest mistake that I see most language learners make is that they just passively attend classes and do text book exercises, and expect to magically "become fluent" some-day. They don't make much effort to go out and use the language in every way that they can; they just stay within the artificially constructed environment of the classroom. Languages are much, much too broad to go about learning them in this way. You have to be proactive, and use your skills. A lot. Even when you don't have them yet. You have to sit there with a dictionary, reading any and everything you can until you begin to expand your vocabulary. You have to watch movies and turn off the subtitles. You have to start conversing with people, no matter how bad you are, and how many mistakes you make, until you're able to do so more and more naturally. Eventually, you have to stop studying a "foreign" language and start becoming familiar with and accustomed to your second language and culture. And that requires quite a bit of "proactive" patience and diligence!
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I think that in order for one to be successful, one generally shouldn't follow simple platitudes or rules; such as "always be patient" or "patience is a recipe for failure". warning: incoming platitude As with many things in life, some level of moderation, mixture and compromise is generally the optimal path.
Basically, be patient with some things and not with others. Though for the life of me I can't think of a situation where patience would be a hindrance. Do remember that one can be patient at the same time they are driven to a goal, ready to seize opportunity, and proactive towards objectives. None of these things are mutually exclusive.
What I would like to hear from you, is an example of a situation where patience is a hindrance or where patience isn't a good choice.
Basically, be patient with some things and not with others. Though for the life of me I can't think of a situation where patience would be a hindrance. Do remember that one can be patient at the same time they are driven to a goal, ready to seize opportunity, and proactive towards objectives. None of these things are mutually exclusive.
What I would like to hear from you, is an example of a situation where patience is a hindrance or where patience isn't a good choice.
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
I will respond to this later, you will just have to be patient.
lklawson
Grandmaster
A lot of them CLAIM that they have or promote a philosophy but in practice I've yet to see a whole lot of evidence that there's any philosophy beyond what is common among the teacher and students already.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
J W
Green Belt
Can you elaborate? Why is patience a recipe for failure? Do you believe that is the case most of the time or only in certain circumstances? Your original post is a bit vague, please give us a bit more to work with.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I think this is an interesting and valid post. Recently, I overheard a music teacher describing patience as one of the highest virtues and it gave me pause too. The teacher meant patience in the sense of persistence or that repeated failures are necessary to master an art. I can see the child's viewpoint too of why waste time failing when you can see a better way or not wanting to repeat things viewed as unnecessary.
I think in martial arts patience can be applied two ways - (1) as a means to get a student to slow down and learn important fundamentals that seem silly at first glance but are essential to more advanced techniques. Ex. The karate kid waxing on and off and becoming impatient or (2) as a really, really bad excuse by bad teachers or schools to be "patient" and in efforts to get/scam more money.
Personally, I think persistence is important but patience, especially with condoning bad behavior, not to be virtuous.
I think in martial arts patience can be applied two ways - (1) as a means to get a student to slow down and learn important fundamentals that seem silly at first glance but are essential to more advanced techniques. Ex. The karate kid waxing on and off and becoming impatient or (2) as a really, really bad excuse by bad teachers or schools to be "patient" and in efforts to get/scam more money.
Personally, I think persistence is important but patience, especially with condoning bad behavior, not to be virtuous.
- Thread Starter
- #12
I would like to thank everybody for their responses. Some people such as Argus have made some really good points. Anyway, my idea about how patience can be a recipe for failure comes from my experience in the martial arts, my experience with life in general, and also my experience with Boy Scouts. I was once a Boy Scout. The Scout Law states that a Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent. Nowhere does it say a Scout is patient. Somebody wanted an example of when patience can be a hindrance and a bad choice, well Boy Scouts has some good examples of that.
This is an interesting thread, and I agree with what most people are saying. The way you define 'patience' is key. In my opinion, patience is always important- waiting carefully, thoughtfully, and intentionally until the time is right for something. That's persistence, too. But passivity, as Argus discussed, is the one that's (almost always) the recipe for disaster. Just sitting back with no purpose and getting run over - in life and in martial arts, is gonna cause a lot of problems.
If you step back, patience can be a component of being "Brave" in the sense that it can be very courageous to persist patiently in spite of hardships. In can be part of being "Reverant" in that great faith often requires great patience. And it could fall under "Obedient" for if you're patiently loyal to a trustworthy teacher. In the martial arts context, I think students should be given more credit to be impatient, try new ideas, and to make mistakes. If the student's idea works better, let it be.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
:lol:
Such as? I still can't think of a good one.
Speaking generally: Patience is really bad if you need to do something RIGHT NOW. Sitting around waiting for a perfect opportunity thats never going to come doesnt help you. Making opportunities and seeing the ones you already have is more useful.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
It's good to define terms before getting too far along in a discussion. If "patience" is meant as simply waiting then it would have a certain use, of course, but perhaps not one that is to be valued so much. I, personally, can't think of anyone who really uses patience this way, however. Most people I think would define it as waiting until an opportunity presents itself and then acting. Being patient, IMNSHO, doesn't imply at all a reticence to act when needed.
In Taekwon-Do we have two tenets that are related to patience, perserverance and indomitable spirit. Perserverance ("in nae" in Korean) can be thought of as patience that includes an aspect of being able to endure suffering. Interestingly, I have read that "in nae" specifically has a courteous connotation to it (i.e., it's not perservering in being arrogant or rude, for instance). Indomitable spirit ("baekgul boolgul" in Korean) means being tireless in what you've undertaken, as well as having an iron will, dauntless, resolutely courageous, etc. It combines aspects of patience (tirelessness, indefatigability) with courage.
In other words, the patience one is supposed to develop through Taekwon-Do training will have aspects of enduring suffering as well as being courageous. That's quite different from the patience one has that means just sitting around and waiting, I think.
Pax,
Chris
In Taekwon-Do we have two tenets that are related to patience, perserverance and indomitable spirit. Perserverance ("in nae" in Korean) can be thought of as patience that includes an aspect of being able to endure suffering. Interestingly, I have read that "in nae" specifically has a courteous connotation to it (i.e., it's not perservering in being arrogant or rude, for instance). Indomitable spirit ("baekgul boolgul" in Korean) means being tireless in what you've undertaken, as well as having an iron will, dauntless, resolutely courageous, etc. It combines aspects of patience (tirelessness, indefatigability) with courage.
In other words, the patience one is supposed to develop through Taekwon-Do training will have aspects of enduring suffering as well as being courageous. That's quite different from the patience one has that means just sitting around and waiting, I think.
Pax,
Chris
J W
Green Belt
Still pretty vague. What examples do the Boy Scouts have of patience being a hindrance?
Yes. Personally I find patience to be very important to martial arts practice. Of course, I might not be disagreeing with PhotonGuy, I might just have a different definition of the word, at least in the context of this discussion. Which is why I'd like him to give some specific examples, so we have some context as to where he is coming from.
I wouldn't define patience as waiting around passively for something to happen, or waiting too long for a perfect opportunity instead of acting. I would call those laziness and hesitance. Patience, in my definition, would be understanding that some things will take longer than you might like, and accepting that fact. Not trying to rush into new material before you are ready for it, for example.
- Thread Starter
- #20
Well in Boy Scouts lets say you've got a goal. For instance, lets say you want to be an Eagle Scout, the top level in Boy Scouts. In the way that most martial arts have belt ranks, Eagle Scout would be equivalent to blackbelt in Boy Scouts. Now, the way I see it is that you don't become an Eagle Scout by being patient. You don't need patience to be an Eagle Scout and as a matter of fact, if you use patience you most likely won't become an Eagle Scout. I have experience with Boy Scouts. Anybody here who is or was a Boy Scout, if you disagree with me about it not requiring patience to become an Eagle Scout, I would like to hear from you. I would like to hear why, from your point of view that it takes patience to become an Eagle Scout and than perhaps we can take it from there.
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