Peripheral Vision or not ..

[Pervaz]

Whats the general consenus regarding in general training - use peripheral vision or not.

Lately (well for the last 6 months or so) I have been concentrating on using peripheral rather than staring straight at the attacker(s) which works much better for me. It allows me to move at a "comfortable" pace and allows me to become more 'proactive' rather than reacting to what the attackers doing.

Pervaz

 

[Rich_]

Peripheral vision's a great tool, especially for weaning yourself off a visual dependence in your body co-ordination. It's also good to train in such a way that you don't become visually fixated under stress (someone's screaming in your face and all you can think about is how nice his buttons are )

One thing to bear in mind is that it's not a high-pressure tool. Peripheral vision is one of the first things to go when adrenaline starts pumping.

 

[jellyman]

I see the peripheral vision thing is a way to more effectively use your field of vision, relative to paying attention to just what you're looking directly at. Under stress, that field of vision does narrow.

 

[Kempo Guy]

I think that's why it's important to work on your soft focus & reducing your fear-reactivity.

In the Systema guidebook, it says that you should look above his head (as this is conducive to having soft focus/peripheral vision) instead of looking at the opponents chest, or the incoming force vector. I've tried this in practice and it seems to work quite well. It does however take a little getting used to.

KG

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kempo Guy
In the Systema guidebook, it says that you should look above his head (as this is conducive to having soft focus/peripheral vision) instead of looking at the opponents chest, or the incoming force vector.

I've heard this from other Systema people, e.g. a person in chat. I've heard as much as 2 feet above your opponent's head. This is terribly counterintuitive advice--in essence, the advice is to look away from rather than at your opponent. I do that on occasion to show off, but not as a strategy.

 

[Jay Bell]

Well...a lot of Systema guidlines are rather vague when laid out on the table...then after hard work and experiance, it tends to make the details come to the surface.

From my experiances, one of the defining ideas as far as "where to look" is not to look anywhere. If you focus vision on one area of the body, it's a tense action. It also often-times gives you tunnel vision...missing things or being slow to react to things that aren't based through that area of the body.

Looking above their head gives the ability to take the eyes out of focus, seeing the body as a whole instead of locking focus into a directed area. I'm sure things go far beyond that...but that's one angle.

 

[NYCRonin]

The soft focus and peripheral viewing, as with looking over the head has many uses - and at first, it will leave you under stress.It takes some work to open the field of vision and can be more easily done when dealing with multiple training partners in Systema 'free movement' work.
Focusing to strongly on anything, in combat or in life, is a limiting factor that can cause one to miss so much.

 

[arnisador]

After you understand the peripheral vision issue, do you still focus above the head?

 

[NYCRonin]

No, the point being (to risk being cryptic/zen-ish) to focus a focus of 'no-focus'... this isnt a 'joke-us' or some fake hocus-pocus ... you avoid a strict locus - and absorb all around you. Looking over the head is a 'tool' for use where it fits in.
We also smile as much as possible when train and actually combat, but...at times, we might suddenly look into an opponents eyes and scowl briefly...then smile and go peripheral-ish again.
Thats the fascinating/frustrating/beautiful thing about Systema 'work' - it refuses to be boxed into absolutes - form, technique, breathing and movement though our key concepts, all go through flexible modification when necessary to survive.

This is more of a 'ya gotta do the 'work' type art than one where every concept can be placed on the draftsmans board of absolutes - it can only be experienced while 'alive' and analytical dissection requires all subject to be dead for detailed study.
That certain 'I dont know what'-ish flavor is the life-blood of 'what we do'.
It's really much easier to 'show' it.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by NYCRonin
this isnt a 'joke-us' or some fake hocus-pocus

I'm afraid it sounds very non-sensical, Zen-ish, you know...t'o look at your opponent, you should look away from your opponent'. It's hardly the first thing in the martial arts I've heard that seemed counterintuitive and it may well actually make sense, but it sure sounds odd!

It's really much easier to 'show' it.

I believe it! I have had some demonstrated to me by jaybacca72 and was convinced that some initially counterintuitive ideas, like walking into a lock to get out of it, were workable. (That probably isn't a very good description of it, but I know what I mean!) So, I am keeping an open mind.

 

[NYCRonin]

THAT...is all thats required.

 

[TAZ]

Its sounds Zenish becuase in a way its is Zenish...

The biggest lesson I have gained from Systema is that we often ignore the obvious and make the simple more complicated then it needs be...

Its beauty and yet its greatest hurdle to acceptene is its very simplicity...

(note to self: must stop eating fortune cookies late at night)


In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king....

In the land of pacifists the one 'armed' man will always be king!!

and now back to the Vodka!!

 

[jellyman]

dredged up a memory from my perceptual/bio-pysche days:

The part of our retina that receives most of the light from our iris (corresponding to the receptors that receive the stimulus from 'what we're looking at) (aka foeva centralis) is built for discerning details (It has a high concentration of cone receptors), however the area of the retina outside of that, while having a lower resolution, has more motion detector type receptors (aka rods). Our eyes are better at picking up movement from things we don't directly look at. This makes sense from a hunter's point of view - We notice the motion at the periphery, locate the object and lock in with our main visual processors, where we track it and analyze it.

So peripheral edges of vision are better for seeing sudden motion (like a punch).

more info on all that:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/rodcone.html

 

[arnisador]

But how do you see the feet if your eyes are pointed two feet above his head?

 

[Kingston]

Originally posted by arnisador
But how do you see the feet if your eyes are pointed two feet above his head?

why does it have to be 2 feet?

I know iv talked with you on chat about this a couple times.......i dont remember saying 2 feet. I remember saying above the head......am i the "person in chat" you where talking about?

As far as seeing the feet....you can still see the hips and the knees...feet cant move unless the hits and knees move.

 

[MartialArtsGuy]

2 feet, I dont know about that man, you would have to use the force or something to see the feet

My gaze is just that, a gaze not at any particular thing and not always over the head but sometimes it is. but not 2 feet.

In the hand book vlad talks about psycological reasons to look above the head. things about anger, fear, making the situation worse by being confrontational and not subconsiously feeling inferior to your opponent. page 31 and 32.

besides how are you going to look above your opponents head if he/she is behind you, on top of you...or any other position that makes it impossible that I am forgetting about.

 

[NYCRonin]

The focus over the head is mearly one tool - and if you ever face Vlad or an experienced practitoner, you will notice he might not even look over your head. No absolutes. Absolutely no absolutes.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kingston
why does it have to be 2 feet?

I had heard someone say that (not on Chat). I don't know how high it has to be. How high above the head does one look?

 

[NYCRonin]

Hey! Will somebody PLEASE get that dead horse out of here!
I'm sorry, I will take it out myself - anybody see my whip?
This whole thread is getting me in over my head.

 

[Kingston]

"How high above the head does one look?"

As high as they feel comfortable.

If you fighting someone two feet taller then you, you would not be looking that high over his head (i wouldn't bother).

Basicaly you want to try not to stare constantly at any one spot of you oponents body. Looking above the head helps you to do this. It helps you to see 'the whole picture' instead of just seeing a fist flying at your head.