People favor TKD, not Kenpo

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by vincefuess
Just about every martial artist I know started in TKD

I started in boxing. Me no likey kicky-kicky.

 

[tonbo]

I also didn't start off in TKD, nor has anyone that I have trained with. Yeah, it's pretty, and there is some good sport aspect there. However, I can't think of another art that is more joked about in terms of fast promotion (belt rank, not marketing).

A few years back, I did a survey and contacted a number of schools around, asking about time length from white to black belts (or from beginner to advanced, if they didn't use belts). Most of the responses said it would take about 4-6 years, and most were honestly on the higher end of the spectrum (5+ years). This was based on at least two times per week, about an hour class each time, and with regular training on your own. Amazingly, most of the TKD schools were saying it would be 2-3 years to black. I gotta shake my head at that.

Of course, this is the *American* version of TKD. I have heard that the actual *Korean* version is much better and much more effective. Any truth to that?

Peace--

 

[Chiduce]

Tonbo, i see it this way. TKD is a leg man martial art. The emphasis is on meditation, stretching, and kicking. If a say, 3rd brown belt can full split in a static stretch and stay in that stretch for at least 10 minutes in meditation, prayer, and humility; then he/she is half the way there too the next ranking! So, i do feel that the ranking structure in TKD is based on the individual practitioner's abilities. There are stories of those whom studied very hard for 12 to 15 month's and received their Black Belts. From , this analogy i get the point that the ranking is there for the individual which seeks it through hard work, prayer and meditation. I do not know the requirements for other systems stretching. Yet i take it that a 3rd brown would at least be able to stay in a full static split for 3-5 minutes in another martial art. This is not to say that striking does not play an important role in the promotion process, yet the pain, sweat, and tears are in the art within the martial art; stretching! So, the TKD practitioner's ability to improve within the art itself, i would say relies heavily on the stretching aspect. The stretch provides success in kicking, improvement in kicking motion abilities and the humility of enduring continuous pain in the learning process of progression within the art. To me the promotions make sense if the practitioner can obtain the skill levels of motion required for the that rank regardless of the time it take's to obtain such levels of proficiency. Ami Tou Fou! :asian: Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Zoran]

I'm sure everybody here knows that there are exceptions to the rule. There are some with either a high degree of natural ability or extensive MA experience that would allow them to earn their Black Belt in record time. As a general norm, it should take 4+ years to achieve a Black Belt rank. McDojo schools give out Black Belts for the money period. Tonbo's point is simple, 2-3 years to Black Belt is ridiculous as an average.

 

[brianhunter]

when 15-16 year olds are going up and asking "what degree are you" and comparing it to their own dan you need to be worried

 

[Klondike93]

If a person already has a black belt in another style, how long do you think it should take to reach first black in american kenpo?

:asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Klondike93

If a person already has a black belt in another style, how long do you think it should take to reach first black in american kenpo?

:asian:

In my school, you can do it in 3 years, 8 months ... not a single
soul has done it in under 5, since the school started.

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Klondike93

If a person already has a black belt in another style, how long do you think it should take to reach first black in american kenpo?

:asian:

I guess that would depend on the person and what style they come from. If you come from a style very different from Kenpo, you may have to go through an un-learning process. If you come from a similar style, Kenpo off-shoot for example, you may be able to assimulate the EPAK material much faster. Maybe cut the time in half, maybe not.

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Zoran

I'm sure everybody here knows that there are exceptions to the rule. There are some with either a high degree of natural ability or extensive MA experience that would allow them to earn their Black Belt in record time. As a general norm, it should take 4+ years to achieve a Black Belt rank. McDojo schools give out Black Belts for the money period. Tonbo's point is simple, 2-3 years to Black Belt is ridiculous as an average.

Ok zoran, i have a good one for you. My sifu is a grand champion on the tournament seen. He also, teaches anyone whom would have a great desire to learn. He is currently teaching a handicapped student and has another up and coming student. His teacher is a master in several different arts as well as my sifu. Now, the up and coming student is fighting tournaments and winning in his division. My sifu says that within one year his student will be able to beat 2nd and 3rd degree black belts in fighting on the mat and in the streets. Now, this guy is good and young and very well versed in the skill level he is learning. Is the sifu right or wrong? Is my sifu's school a mcdojo for letting this guy within a year compete in the upper black belt ranks? Since the school my teacher trained did not give out promotion belt ranks, just the title of disciple, he is a disciple of his teacher; yet he fights in the 6th and 7th Dan categories and performs weapons forms in the same category! The point i'am making here is that the teacher and my teacher is well known and respected on the tournament fighting, and weapons forms seen. The sifu wins and is respected as that rank in which he won in competition. He teaches for no money, yet recieves money for winning in competition. He is an old school instructor and still takes on all challengers outside of the mat. The belt means nothing, only the knowledge of the practical applications and execution of the higher levels of defensive skill have meaning. To paraphrase Eagle Claw Master Lilly Lau; It is not the school which determines your proficiency within the art, but the Teacher from which you learned the proficiency! Though everyone has the right to voice their views. So, how do you assess this one? Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Zoran]

Chudice,

Tournaments are tournaments. Carrying the rank of Black Belt means more than being able to win in a fight or tournament. It means that you have gained a level of understanding, as well as physical skill, in your system. The rank system is not designed to tell someone I can kick their @ss. It's their, in theory, to show what point I am in my MA journey for that system. Some people can learn all the material in a system ,for Black Belt, in a very short period of time. As well as having superior athletic ability that could make them great fighters quickly. Are they Black Belts? I say no. The criteria that is missing is the time needed to absorb and have understanding of the "why", not just the "how".

Now as far as your instructor bumping a persons rank for a tournament, I have no problem with that. He's a teen Green Belt good enough to fight in the adult BB division. Slap a Black Belt on him and cut him loose. My instructor has done something similar in the past. We call them "field promotions". Of course, you went back to your regular rank after the competition.

It would be even more fun to put that Green Belt back on him before he went up to get his trophy. I would love to see the faces. :EG:

 

[Blindside]

Chiduce posted:
"Since the school my teacher trained did not give out promotion belt ranks, just the title of disciple, he is a disciple of his teacher; yet he fights in the 6th and 7th Dan categories and performs weapons forms in the same category!"

I don't think I've ever heard of this, just how big a division are these at these tournaments (the 6th and 7th Dan categories)?

Maybe I run on a pretty small tournament scene, but by these rankings most practitioners are retired from competition. What tournament circuit is this?

Lamont

 

[vincefuess]

I can usually follow your posts, and agree much of the time- but I can't make heads nor tails of the last one. Can you clarify?

You know as well as anyone that the rank of black belt symbolizes far more than fighting ability. I am a 1st degree black, and I know 4th degree blacks I could clobber (in my own system even). They didn't get their rank because they could whip someone's butt- they got it for their contributions to the art, their level of experience, their expertise, and their depth.

There are people out in the street who have never formally trained a day in their life who beat the crap outta just about anybody, regardless of style or rank. I may not want to fight them, but that doesn't mean I respect them.

I have been involved in self-defense training, AND tournament training for many years. There are no "dan divisions" at the black belt level for any tournament I ever saw. I beat out a 5th degree black in Kenpo forms one time, and I was a FRESH 1st degree (like by about a month). My form was just better than his that day- it darn sure doesn't mean I deserve his rank! Nor does it suggest he doesn't. It was just a good day with my best form.

I guess it all depends on how you define "black belt".

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by vincefuess

I can usually follow your posts, and agree much of the time- but I can't make heads nor tails of the last one. Can you clarify?

You know as well as anyone that the rank of black belt symbolizes far more than fighting ability. I am a 1st degree black, and I know 4th degree blacks I could clobber (in my own system even). They didn't get their rank because they could whip someone's butt- they got it for their contributions to the art, their level of experience, their expertise, and their depth.

There are people out in the street who have never formally trained a day in their life who beat the crap outta just about anybody, regardless of style or rank. I may not want to fight them, but that doesn't mean I respect them.

I have been involved in self-defense training, AND tournament training for many years. There are no "dan divisions" at the black belt level for any tournament I ever saw. I beat out a 5th degree black in Kenpo forms one time, and I was a FRESH 1st degree (like by about a month). My form was just better than his that day- it darn sure doesn't mean I deserve his rank! Nor does it suggest he doesn't. It was just a good day with my best form.

I guess it all depends on how you define "black belt".

I'am speaking of the senior's category! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Chiduce

I'am speaking of the senior's category! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Seniors category has to do with the age of the practitioner.

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by vincefuess

I can usually follow your posts, and agree much of the time- but I can't make heads nor tails of the last one. Can you clarify?

You know as well as anyone that the rank of black belt symbolizes far more than fighting ability. I am a 1st degree black, and I know 4th degree blacks I could clobber (in my own system even). They didn't get their rank because they could whip someone's butt- they got it for their contributions to the art, their level of experience, their expertise, and their depth.

There are people out in the street who have never formally trained a day in their life who beat the crap outta just about anybody, regardless of style or rank. I may not want to fight them, but that doesn't mean I respect them.

I have been involved in self-defense training, AND tournament training for many years. There are no "dan divisions" at the black belt level for any tournament I ever saw. I beat out a 5th degree black in Kenpo forms one time, and I was a FRESH 1st degree (like by about a month). My form was just better than his that day- it darn sure doesn't mean I deserve his rank! Nor does it suggest he doesn't. It was just a good day with my best form.

I guess it all depends on how you define "black belt".

Vincefuess; the 4th Dan especially in American Kenpo is suppose to show the gap within skill levels in fighting ( and also kata preformance) between the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd degrees. The 4th degree is the chief instructor, which is suppose to be better in technique exectutio as well as kata and specifically, figthing. So, maybe 3rd Dan you could clobber, but not 4th in you own system. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Zoran



Seniors category has to do with the age of the practitioner.

Yes it does because most practitioners with that type of ranking are 40 or over. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Klondike93]

But your not doggin us over 40 guys, are ya?





:asian:

 

[Chiduce]

By the way vince, since i'am not an American Kenpo practitioner, i will have to ask you if there are 4th Dans in your system whom are either older in age and are noted for there contribution or those whom are just no good at fighting. I do not mean to cause a problem because of this statement! I figured that you just may have made a printiong error in your response! Nor i'am i a tournament fighter, i'am merely explaining what was told to me by my sifu! Sincerely, in Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Blindside]

Chiduce Posted:
"Yes it does because most practitioners with that type of ranking are 40 or over. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!"

I'm afraid you are mistaken. A 40 year old 1st degree black belt who just got his belt would also compete in the Seniors or "Masters" black-belt division. There is no such animal as division for 6th and up Dan rankings in any tournament that I am aware of. Above 1st degree black the split is usually by age or weight or both, not by Dan ranking.

Lamont

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Blindside

Chiduce Posted:
"Yes it does because most practitioners with that type of ranking are 40 or over. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!"

I'm afraid you are mistaken. A 40 year old 1st degree black belt who just got his belt would also compete in the Seniors or "Masters" black-belt division. There is no such animal as division for 6th and up Dan rankings in any tournament that I am aware of. Above 1st degree black the split is usually by age or weight or both, not by Dan ranking.

Lamont

Homs, you twisted what i said a little. my post after or the post you are refering to did not say the the 1st Degree would be 40 years old. It said that the student was young. The kids actual age is 21 so in a year he would be 22 and competing in the black belt division. Now my sifu, whom is over 40 competes in the Senior or Master's division. My last post or the one before yours explained the tournament understanding that i have. So, i hope this statement clears things up a little for you. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!