Pekiti Tirsia Kali mixes with other arts

[Charlemagne]

Next I think it is clear the principles meet well since others who study WC under other Lineages PLUS PTK (not Inosanto Kali) concur there is a good mesh means... It is a good mesh. Sometimes, things just fit.
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As I noted above, I study PTK and I don't think it is a good mesh with WC. Of the arts the OP listed, it was the best option. However, the strategy of the two systems are so different that I actually think it would be problematic in the long run. In PTK, our empty hands comes from the knife. In some FMA's this is said, but not really done. In PTK, this is really how it works. If you look at a place where PTK is being trained classically and not mixed with other stuff, you can look at any empty hand movement and find the same movement in solo or double daga.

Because of this, I believe that WC would end up conflicting with PTK in the long haul. WC wants to dominate centerline. PTK only goes to center line in specific instances, particularly in espada y daga/two long weapons or, when you have managed to quarter your opponent and have either their flank or have gotten then moving in a direction that you want them to, and have the proper timing. I suppose another time might be due to environmental consderations (not getting pushed into a corner, etc.). The bottom line is that the overall strategy of WC and PTK differs greatly due to the reasons for the systems' existence and their assumptions about fighting.

If one is looking to beef up the mano y mano aspect of things and train PTK, my strong suggestion would be Thai Boxing instead of WC. Thai Boxing would allow more easily borrowing some techniques to blend in with the core strategy of PTK (with the exception of throwing punches). In addition the mechanics of elbows and kicks in MT and PTK are not too different . Knees can be different (PTK tends to throw the knees more forward versus up as in MT), but that is more of a function of the intent of the knee than anything else, and there are times when PTK throws a rising knee as well. Straight line punches can easily be open hand strikes with the palm, which PTK has already, and then maintain the strategy of PTK of not taking the chance of damaging your hand to the point that you cannot grasp your weapon.

 

[Juany118]

As I noted above, I study PTK and I don't think it is a good mesh with WC. Of the arts the OP listed, it was the best option. However, the strategy of the two systems are so different that I actually think it would be problematic in the long run. In PTK, our empty hands comes from the knife. In some FMA's this is said, but not really done. In PTK, this is really how it works. If you look at a place where PTK is being trained classically and not mixed with other stuff, you can look at any empty hand movement and find the same movement in solo or double daga.

Because of this, I believe that WC would end up conflicting with PTK in the long haul. WC wants to dominate centerline. PTK only goes to center line in specific instances, particularly in espada y daga/two long weapons or, when you have managed to quarter your opponent and have either their flank or have gotten then moving in a direction that you want them to, and have the proper timing. I suppose another time might be due to environmental consderations (not getting pushed into a corner, etc.). The bottom line is that the overall strategy of WC and PTK differs greatly due to the reasons for the systems' existence and their assumptions about fighting.

If one is looking to beef up the mano y mano aspect of things and train PTK, my strong suggestion would be Thai Boxing instead of WC. Thai Boxing would allow more easily borrowing some techniques to blend in with the core strategy of PTK (with the exception of throwing punches). In addition the mechanics of elbows and kicks in MT and PTK are not too different . Knees can be different (PTK tends to throw the knees more forward versus up as in MT), but that is more of a function of the intent of the knee than anything else, and there are times when PTK throws a rising knee as well. Straight line punches can easily be open hand strikes with the palm, which PTK has already, and then maintain the strategy of PTK of not taking the chance of damaging your hand to the point that you cannot grasp your weapon.

Inosanto Kali is very similar to what you describe but I think two things comes into play.

First something can mesh well when it brings something new to the table. While in WC, empty hand, we are looking to dominate the centerline, we do so in a way very reminicent of "defang the snake", instead of attempting to destroy a limb though (which is very difficult to do without a weapon or lock) we trap the limb. On the flip side I have found that the forward intent of WC, and other principles, (again empty hand) helps with Kali because both, in my experience, involve trying to compromise your opponent's structure/balance. This is actually the core point of WC's view of centerline dominance. You can, short form, dominate/attack the opponent's centerline by attacking his limb, it's not just about going for their "heart", at least in the WC I study.

Second I think understanding the Baat Jaam Do and it's place in WC changes things a bit. WC is taught in what some may call an "odd" way. The BJD is a matter of Chicken or the egg. Like Kali and the knife they very closely related to the hand. So say the BJD comes from the hand, others say the hand came from the BJD. Then you look at what the name translates to the "8 chopping blades" the 8 referring to the joints; elbow, wrist, knees, and ankles.

There is more to WC than one usually thinks and there is overlap that allows each to learn something vs just reinforcing what already exists.

 

[Charlemagne]

Inosanto Kali is very similar to what you describe but I think two things comes into play.

First something can mesh well when it brings something new to the table. While in WC, empty hand, we are looking to dominate the centerline, we do so in a way very reminicent of "defang the snake", instead of attempting to destroy a limb though (which is very difficult to do without a weapon or lock) we trap the limb. On the flip side I have found that the forward intent of WC, and other principles, (again empty hand) helps with Kali because both, in my experience, involve trying to compromise your opponent's structure/balance. This is actually the core point of WC's view of centerline dominance. You can, short form, dominate/attack the opponent's centerline by attacking his limb, it's not just about going for their "heart", at least in the WC I study.

Second I think understanding the Baat Jaam Do and it's place in WC changes things a bit. WC is taught in what some may call an "odd" way. The BJD is a matter of Chicken or the egg. Like Kali and the knife they very closely related to the hand. So say the BJD comes from the hand, others say the hand came from the BJD. Then you look at what the name translates to the "8 chopping blades" the 8 referring to the joints; elbow, wrist, knees, and ankles.

There is more to WC than one usually thinks and there is overlap that allows each to learn something vs just reinforcing what already exists.

I've trained both Lacoste-Inosanto Kali and Pekiti Tirsia Kali (in two different PTK organizations). The fundamental strategies of the systems are different. As such, I would recommend staying away from the idea that because WC might blend with Inosanto Kali well, that it will in PTK.

Many if not most, Inosanto Instructors also study JKD, etc. anyway, so that likely influences the manner in which they practice the art, in particular because they likely learned them simultaneously.

In addition, because Lacoste-Inosanto Kali is itself a blended system, that was traditionally taught in a seminar format, there really isn't much in the way of overarching strategies and tactics to work with, or for that matter, to violate.

That's not meant to be an attack as I have a TON of respect and affection for Guro Dan, just an observation that I believe to be accurate.

 

[Juany118]

I've trained both Lacoste-Inosanto Kali and Pekiti Tirsia Kali (in two different PTK organizations). The fundamental strategies of the systems are different. As such, I would recommend staying away from the idea that because WC might blend with Inosanto Kali well, that it will in PTK.

Many if not most, Inosanto Instructors also study JKD, etc. anyway, so that likely influences the manner in which they practice the art, in particular because they likely learned them simultaneously.

In addition, because Lacoste-Inosanto Kali is itself a blended system, that was traditionally taught in a seminar format, there really isn't much in the way of overarching strategies and tactics to work with, or for that matter, to violate.

That's not meant to be an attack as I have a TON of respect and affection for Guro Dan, just an observation that I believe to be accurate.

Fair enough, though I would at least suggest looking at how the BJD itself and how it adds to what was already learned, if you haven't already done so. I think it may at least give you a different idea as to what WC is.

 

[Charlemagne]

Fair enough, though I would at least suggest looking at how the BJD itself and how it adds to what was already learned, if you haven't already done so. I think it may at least give you a different idea as to what WC is.

The bit I have seen suggests that, again, we are making different assumptions and have a different strategy as a result. If I am going to blend something, it is going to be something which compliments rather than overlaps.

 

[geezer]

The bit I have seen suggests that, again, we are making different assumptions and have a different strategy as a result. If I am going to blend something, it is going to be something which compliments rather than overlaps.

I get that. An example from my own experience with WC and Eskrima would be not spending much time with Hubud drills. They are very like some of our WC/VT/WT drills called Lat-Sau. But Lat Sau is more linear, direct, and in short, better training for our Wing Chun. From a WC perspective, hubud is, at best, a distraction.

When cross training, I think it can be helpful to note similarities in both technique and concept, but is important not to try to blend the arts themselves. Except, in so far as working on transitions (as I noted in my previous post).

 

[Juany118]

Thought I might revisit this thread even though the OP is long gone. Or perhaps because the OP is long gone? The conversation I'm interested in is really with the rest of you!

First off, I think I get where ShortBridge was coming from when he said that he did not mix WC and Kali and actually found them incompatible. I wonder. It may depend on how you approach the FMA you train. ShortBridge also said:



^^^^ Agreed! This (bolded section above) is precisely how I've been able to integrate the Escrima I've trained with my VT/WC. First of all, my FMA foundation is not Inosanto/LaCosta Kali but Latosa Escrima Concepts and also DTE. One of the fundamental concepts of these systems is "transition" or the ability to seamlessly and effectively move from range to range, from one weapon to another, and to to empty handed combat, all while applying the same core concepts. And the concepts involved do not contradict WC/VT. In fact, they are at the core of my lineage of WC/VT. This is nothing new. Think about how WC already incorporates this kind of "transition" and adaptation when learning the traditional weapons of WC/VT, namely the luk dim boon kwun and bart cham dao. Stance, steps, techniques and range all change as necessary, but they are conceptually entirely WC/VT.

So when using weapons and working at longer ranges, a more typically "Escrima-looking" approach (in terms of stance and movement) is very functional. When closing-in, using short weapons or going empty handed, I will transition into my WC/VT structure and way of moving. The transition is natural and I do not compromise either my Escrima or WC/VT ...any more than a WC guy who also trains a grappling art like BJJ. Each method remains distinct, except for that moment of transition where you learn fluid, efficient ways to move from the one modality to the other ...just like the WC/Grappler learns to move from striking, to clinch, to throw, and to mat work. Think of a big Venn diagram with relatively small areas where the circles overlap.

I began training Latosa Escrima alongside my WC (then "WT") back in the early 80s. Over the last ten years, I've gone a bit further, formulating an approach and curriculum called PCE that is designed to emphasize the compatibility of Escrima and WC/VT taught in the organization I train with. Not a "new style" --how can you have that with "concepts" anyway? Just an approach to teaching and application that has worked for us.

...You know, I really need to learn how to make and post videos so I can give some visual examples. Maybe if I cared about making money or a name for myself, I would. But, really, I just like doing this stuff!

I agree with what you say and feel that Lacoste-Inosanto Kali is a benefit in much the same way. I see that both inform the other actually. Let me break it down.
1. Kali is all about being able to flow between ranges as you say. Flowing between different ranges is not something you learn right out of the gate in TWC however. That comes later in the curriculum but the Kali rams that home from the beginning.
2. Distance and timing. There is a BIG incentive to get this out of the gate in Kali, rattan to the noodle hurts!
3. Once in close though one needs to be able to seemlessly tighten up their structure and foot work. This is one of the places where WC helps Kali. I sometimes see Kali people, when in close, waster energy and miss proper positioning because they are still doing the "wider" footwork one does when fighting with weapons.
4. I also find they both reinforce the other in terms of flowing and being relaxed. Both martial arts, imo, suffer when you go stiff and try to "muscle" things.

Maybe it's because my Sifu/Guro teaches both in parallel but as you say it's a seamless, the core principles are shared, but they are still taught as separate arts, that was the "deal" he made with GM Cheung. To make sure it stays that way we even have to go to another school to test for Wing Chun ranks.