Pek Jeung (basics)

[chinaboxer]

Pek Jeung or Fak Sau, is found in the “second section” of your siu nim tau form. this movement seems to confuse alot of wing chun practitioners, just understand that the answers are found in the detail and the quality of the movement. just like i always say, “simple does not mean easy!”.

after watching the video, i hope that you have a better understanding of “why” and not only the “how”. and how important it is to be able to get your “body structure” behind your elbow and fist by aligning your wrist properly.

finally, make sure to implement every detail into your siu nim tau practice!

http://www.thechinaboxer.com/2010/05/26/pek-jeung-basics/

Jin

 

[geezer]

Jin--I was interested in just how very different your interpretation of these techniques is from that of my lineage. My old Chinese Si-fu knew Hawkins well. They even travelled to the mainland together, way back in the 80's of early 90's... but my si-fu never went into the differences between their interpretations. He also taught us that "the little things matter" but he taught us these "little things" very differently.

We learned to do punches and other techniques like fak sau with a very relaxed, whipping quality, never tensing the wrist or fearing full elbow extension. In fact my old sifu insisted on a purely vertical fist and 100% elbow extension during chain punching, letting the energy exit freely out through your fist at the completion of the punch. Now it is a fact that if overdone, this can irritate your elbows, but the common belief that this is harmful or dangerous is greatly exaggerated... usually by boxers or karateka who are not familiar with the particulars of a WC/WT/VT punch, with it's elbow pointed downward and elastic energy.

At any rate, I'm always curious to see how others approach these techniques, since different approaches have their merit, and perhaps by opening our eyes to other perspectives, we can get a better sense of the whole of what Wing Chun is.

I must admit though, I cringe when I hear you casually dismiss other approaches as "wrong" without fully comprehending their rational, ...as though they are being done that way through carelessness or inattention! And yes, I also cringe when I hear experienced practitioners in my lineage say the same thing about what you and other guys do as well. I guess I'm pretty much alone among my colleagues in that when teaching, I don't dismiss other approaches as "wrong". Rather, I say "We do it this way because...." A small difference in words, but a big difference in outlook.

 

[mook jong man]

Jin--I was interested in just how very different your interpretation of these techniques is from that of my lineage. My old Chinese Si-fu knew Hawkins well. They even travelled to the mainland together, way back in the 80's of early 90's... but my si-fu never went into the differences between their interpretations. He also taught us that "the little things matter" but he taught us these "little things" very differently.

We learned to do punches and other techniques like fak sau with a very relaxed, whipping quality, never tensing the wrist or fearing full elbow extension. In fact my old sifu insisted on a purely vertical fist and 100% elbow extension during chain punching, letting the energy exit freely out through your fist at the completion of the punch. Now it is a fact that if overdone, this can irritate your elbows, but the common belief that this is harmful or dangerous is greatly exaggerated... usually by boxers or karateka who are not familiar with the particulars of a WC/WT/VT punch, with it's elbow pointed downward and elastic energy.

At any rate, I'm always curious to see how others approach these techniques, since different approaches have their merit, and perhaps by opening our eyes to other perspectives, we can get a better sense of the whole of what Wing Chun is.

I must admit though, I cringe when I hear you casually dismiss other approaches as "wrong" without fully comprehending their rational, ...as though they are being done that way through carelessness or inattention! And yes, I also cringe when I hear experienced practitioners in my lineage say the same thing about what you and other guys do as well. I guess I'm pretty much alone among my colleagues in that when teaching, I don't dismiss other approaches as "wrong". Rather, I say "We do it this way because...." A small difference in words, but a big difference in outlook.

Can you summarise what the video is about please ?
It would take me about 2 hours to watch a video that long on my crappy internet connection.

 

[chinaboxer]

Jin--I must admit though, I cringe when I hear you casually dismiss other approaches as "wrong" without fully comprehending their rational, ...as though they are being done that way through carelessness or inattention! And yes, I also cringe when I hear experienced practitioners in my lineage say the same thing about what you and other guys do as well. I guess I'm pretty much alone among my colleagues in that when teaching, I don't dismiss other approaches as "wrong". Rather, I say "We do it this way because...." A small difference in words, but a big difference in outlook.

i agree, i was actually going to put up a disclaimer in the video because i knew someone would bring that up..=D what i mean to say is that it is wrong if you are trying to adhere to Hawkins Cheung's Method. not meaning, "it's my way or the highway!" i'll make sure to annotate that in the video, thanks for bringing it up!

Jin

 

[geezer]

Can you summarise what the video is about please ?
It would take me about 2 hours to watch a video that long on my crappy internet connection.

BTW in the video, Jin discusses how he performs fak-sau, both in the SNT form and gives some applications. But he also goes into fair depth regarding details of hand positioning and so on, relating it to similar positions used in other techniques such as gaun sau (the WT "gwat sau" --our "gaun sau" is different) and the front punch. It's worth getting ahold of somebody that has a decent high-speed internet connection to watch. Now I understand why Jin and the Hawkins Cheung folks do some of the things they do differently than my lineage. If you do watch it, I'd like to get your take on it too, Mook.

 

[mook jong man]

Took a long time but I watched it .
There seem to quite a few differences in the way we execute the form.
Most of them are to do with how the wrists are locked into different positions.

I absolutely agree with initiating the movement from the elbow , using the forearm results in a flicky motion that lacks the power of using the mass of the whole arm.

In the TST method we go too great pains to try and eliminate any tension in the muscles at all. TST believes the more relaxed you are the more powerful you will be.
So we don't advocate locking the wrists at all because this would lead to tension radiating up the forearms.

We don't worry about the elbow locking out at all , in fact we were encouraged to drive the elbows right out when punching and at full speed too.
I've been punching like this since 1989 and my elbows are ok , legs are a different matter though , I wouldn't recommend doing kicks in the air to full extention.

The way we punch the wrist is in alignment all the way to the target and then the wrist is firmed on impact.

The way the punching is done on the video I suspect there could be a danger of the wrist buckling on impact or at least not transmitting all of the potential power into the target.

But I am only surmising here , I would have to see the punches done very hard on the wall bag.

We tend to use the Garn Sau against a high or low back fist , I wouldn't use it against a straight punch unless I only had the use of one arm , too passive.

Much better to spring in with a Tan sau on the inside of his arm and a simultaneous punch , pak sau and punch or tor sau and punch.

I was also interested in why the shift back from the punch , I would just pivot slightly to take the punch off line with the garn sau and then immediately go forward to latch the arm and strike the throat , this would seem to me to be more direct and economical.

I also don't understand the need to follow his arm up keeping contact with it before you strike the throat why not just take a direct path from the point of deflection straight to his throat , you already have control of his arm.

Using a technique like this with a deflection and then a counter instead of a simultaneous counter attack I believe it would be even more crucial to be extremely economical and direct because he still has a another hand on the other side to hit you with.

 

[dosk3n]

Thanks again for the video Jin.

I subscribed to your youtube ages ago and Im still very interested in seeing more videos to come.

I think theyre very informational and even though some things are carried out differntly to my Linneage (A blend of both (Y)ip Chun and )Y)ip Ching). I still manage to adapt the parts of Hawkins teachings into to my training, to work for me personally.

Thanks,

Dean / Dosk3n / Deandt(youtube)

 

[geezer]

Took a long time but I watched it .
There seem to quite a few differences in the way we execute the form.
Most of them are to do with how the wrists are locked into different positions.

I absolutely agree with initiating the movement from the elbow , using the forearm results in a flicky motion that lacks the power of using the mass of the whole arm.

In the TST method we go too great pains to try and eliminate any tension in the muscles at all. TST believes the more relaxed you are the more powerful you will be.
So we don't advocate locking the wrists at all because this would lead to tension radiating up the forearms.

We don't worry about the elbow locking out at all , in fact we were encouraged to drive the elbows right out when punching and at full speed too.
I've been punching like this since 1989 and my elbows are ok , legs are a different matter though , I wouldn't recommend doing kicks in the air to full extention.

The way we punch the wrist is in alignment all the way to the target and then the wrist is firmed on impact.

Mook, thanks for your input. The way we do things sounds pretty much the way you've described them. I especially agree with your comments on relaxation (which I put in bold type above). As far as our fak sau in SNT is concerned, we lead with the elbow and the rest or the arm should follow, being as loose as a whip, and never stiff like a "chop". The movement reminds me of the way the fishing line rolls out when a fly-fisherman casts his line on the water.

 

[mook jong man]

Mook, thanks for your input. The way we do things sounds pretty much the way you've described them. I especially agree with your comments on relaxation (which I put in bold type above). As far as our fak sau in SNT is concerned, we lead with the elbow and the rest or the arm should follow, being as loose as a whip, and never stiff like a "chop". The movement reminds me of the way the fishing line rolls out when a fly-fisherman casts his line on the water.

Yes its a bit like that , or as was explained to us the movement is initiated with the elbow and then you just expand the angles of the arms.

But the biggest issue is the way the force is generated , the strike must be like a relaxed dead weight.

If the moves are executed with tension , then to a certain degree your muscles are fighting against each other and it is just a waste of energy.

Only the muscles directly involved in the movement should be used and they should be as relaxed as possible.

The strikes that are done with tension never have that extreme penetrative quality that seem to make you feel a bit sick inside when you hold the pad for someone who knows how to do it properly.

 

[chinaboxer]

But the biggest issue is the way the force is generated , the strike must be like a relaxed dead weight.

you are 100% right, maybe it didn't come across right in the video, when i use the word "lock" or "tension", i probably should of used the word "extension", the "third stick to the hand, should always be relaxed or "soft as a blade of grass". sometimes it's so hard to get to get a point across, and the videos are filmed very late at night after work and my brain is usually mush by then. but i'm glad that there's folks such as you all who keep me on the right track. i'll make another annotation in the video so that people don't start "tensing" the arms unnaturally during the movement. thanks!

Jin

 

[mook jong man]

you are 100% right, maybe it didn't come across right in the video, when i use the word "lock" or "tension", i probably should of used the word "extension", the "third stick to the hand, should always be relaxed or "soft as a blade of grass". sometimes it's so hard to get to get a point across, and the videos are filmed very late at night after work and my brain is usually mush by then. but i'm glad that there's folks such as you all who keep me on the right track. i'll make another annotation in the video so that people don't start "tensing" the arms unnaturally during the movement. thanks!

Jin

No worries mate , it just illustrates how hard it is to get across the intricacies of the Wing Chun system to people , whether it be through text or even demonstrated on video.

Whilst someone might be able to superficially copy a movement when they see it , they have no idea of the muscle control thats used or whats going on internally.

It really is something that has to be physically felt to be fully appreciated.
For example I tried to make my Fook Sau exactly like my Master's Fook Sau , same angle , same everything , to a layperson they would look exactly the same.

Except when my Master put his Fook Sau on you it felt like you were carrying a ton of bricks , mine on the other hand was well ........ not so good.

Just seeing the movement doesn't give you the whole picture at all , it has to be physically experienced.

But keep up the good work with the videos , they are of a high quality.
We all might come from different branches of the Wing Chun tree , but I am still very interested in the methods that other lineages use.

 

[KamonGuy2]

No worries mate , it just illustrates how hard it is to get across the intricacies of the Wing Chun system to people , whether it be through text or even demonstrated on video.

Whilst someone might be able to superficially copy a movement when they see it , they have no idea of the muscle control thats used or whats going on internally.

It really is something that has to be physically felt to be fully appreciated.
For example I tried to make my Fook Sau exactly like my Master's Fook Sau , same angle , same everything , to a layperson they would look exactly the same.

Except when my Master put his Fook Sau on you it felt like you were carrying a ton of bricks , mine on the other hand was well ........ not so good.

Just seeing the movement doesn't give you the whole picture at all , it has to be physically experienced.

But keep up the good work with the videos , they are of a high quality.
We all might come from different branches of the Wing Chun tree , but I am still very interested in the methods that other lineages use.

Its nice to explore detail in the moves that you perform. Technique is always better than brute force etc. It is important to say that you can do techniques numerous different ways and you will often find that different schools vary in how they do things. This is great provided they know why they do it.

Wan Kam Leung has a very very relaxed fak sao in the second part of sil nim tao (almost like limp wrists), but gives good explanations as to why he does this. Some schools dont even use a fak sao in sil nim tao!!

Even in our school - I have seen changes over the years within sil nim tao, but my master explains his way of thinking.

It is like people doing a punch - som put their elbow into the centre line whilst others dont. As long as you know why you are training that way then it should be fine