Paying For First Class?

[ShortBridge]

I don't charge for visits in part because I don't want either of us to feel obligated to the other beyond that visit. I also don't invite many visitors because growth beyond a certain point is not my objective.

That said, it's a hassle running a martial arts class and whatever model works best for the person doing it is the right one for them. Students should be evaluating the teacher/club the same as the other way around, so if it doesn't sit right with you, it may not be your spot.

 

[stonewall1350]

The difficulty with the comparison is that a first class is seriously unlike what they'll experience after the first few weeks. My first class involves a safety lecture, discussion of risk management, and then some very simple techniques and introduction to elbow strikes. They will feel awkward and inept - and a little foolish if they decide to put on a dogi for the first time. They'll get a better view of what class is like by watching, where they can see students at various stages and of various abilities. I imagine it's a similar problem in any school. I'm not saying the trial class is worthless - as I said earlier, it's a marketing thing. I know if they step on the mats, they'll almost certainly sign up. I'm considering having a requirement that they watch at least part of a class before being able to take the trial class, though, because a student's first day sucks up a lot of my time. I'd rather they watched a class and made their decision that it looks right to them before I spend that time.

THAT makes more sense to me than a "pay for first class" type of thing. It really encourages the person to see what happens rather than just jump in. Me? I'm more likely to be put off by someone who just wants my money. Someone who is actually concerned and professional about their class and their gym? More likely to get me to join.


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[Monkey Turned Wolf]

THAT makes more sense to me than a "pay for first class" type of thing. It really encourages the person to see what happens rather than just jump in. Me? I'm more likely to be put off by someone who just wants my money. Someone who is actually concerned and professional about their class and their gym? More likely to get me to join.


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Did you ever find out if that dojo allows people to watch a class or couple of classes but not participate?

 

[marques]

I have seen places where you CANNOT watch any class, but train twice instead for free. And other where you CAN assist for free the rest of your life (or gym's life). Everything is possible.

I am positively surprised how a (quite) non-issue to me, and many of us, produced a bunch of interesting posts, at least.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I talk about this all the time with my wife. Some instructors will get mad when students don't show up for kung fu practice. Yes it would be nice if that student would show up more, but if they are paying for the class and not showing up then it's still a sale. From a business perspective the customer is literally just giving the business money. From the customers perspective, the customer is wasting money and will probably make a decision to either not renew the contract or to try to show up to more classes.

It's like paying for services like Netflix. The money side could care less if a customer watches only one movie every 2 months or if a customer watches movies all the time. The bottom line is that both are paying customers.

With that said the marketing side of a martial art school would care greatly about students not showing up as one of the most depressing things to do is to practice alone or with very few people as a student. We are social animals, so the more people in a class the happier and more likely a person will show up for another class (within limits). My most difficult sales days is when a potential customer drops by and there are only 3 people training that day and 2 of them are instructors.. When we have at least 5 other people training, it creates a different energy and feel to the room.

When we have few students, we want ALL of them to show up every class. When we have a lot of students, those who show up irregularly allow us to "overbook" a bit. If I can handle 16 students in the space I'm using, and have 16 students signed up who show up every time, I'm full. If I have a 20% no-show rate, I can add 3 more students (more money to the program without more instructor time). I may occasionally have more than 16 in the room, but that's something I can accommodate on an occasional basis (half the class at a time on striking-only work, for instance).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Did you ever find out if that dojo allows people to watch a class or couple of classes but not participate?

This is where I look for the red flags. I would personally be cautious of any school that won't let folks watch before stepping on the mats.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have seen places where you CANNOT watch any class, but train twice instead for free.

This would be an acceptable trade off for me, being that if someone wanted to see the class bad enough then they will choose to train for free. I always like the idea of windows on a school so people who are walking by can glance and see what is going on. I'm not as protective about the system I train when it comes to people who don't know martial arts, as they lack the understanding to make anything work. But around other martial artist I get really general about what I do, how I fight, and how techniques are used, because I know they would figure it out.

 

[ShortBridge]

This is where I look for the red flags. I would personally be cautious of any school that won't let folks watch before stepping on the mats.

I don't.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't.

Why not? Why would a school not allow a prospective student to watch what they're going to step into before actually doing so?

 

[Kickboxer101]

Why not? Why would a school not allow a prospective student to watch what they're going to step into before actually doing so?

Personally either way it doesn't to me but I've heard some people say they don't allow it because having strangers there just watching would put the students off or make them feel uncomfortable or it might make them have less control thinking oh look there's a visitor ill go harder to show how tough I am to the new guy. Then by doing that it'd show the school in a bad light

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Personally either way it doesn't to me but I've heard some people say they don't allow it because having strangers there just watching would put the students off or make them feel uncomfortable or it might make them have less control thinking oh look there's a visitor ill go harder to show how tough I am to the new guy. Then by doing that it'd show the school in a bad light

I can see that. At the same time, a prospective student should be allowed to watch. In my experience, students quickly get used to it, and it has never caused a problem. It's a non-event after a while, so has no real impact upon the training.

 

[ShortBridge]

A number of reasons, I guess. Not that I would suggest that it was the right choice for anyone else, necessarily.

First, we're a club, I'm not always looking for or open to expanding membership. When someone is interested, I talk with them on the phone and try to determine whether we're a good fit for them or vice versa. I frequently at this point, suggest some other option for people, different style, different type of gym, maybe something closer to where they live, even other local Wing Chun instructors if I think they might be what they are looking for.

We don't have windows or a sign and I like that people don't necessarily know where we are. We're training, not marketing. I've got limited space and there really isn't any place for anyone to sit and watch if they were to want to do so. I don't teach kids, so there are never parents or rides waiting around for class to end. Our kwoon is in the basement of a commercial building and I'm responsible for whoever is hanging around down there.

I respect what someone said above about having some overbooking, but I don't personally do things that way. I have a small group and we come to train every time. I don't want anyone who isn't committed. Business travel, birthdays, etc not withstanding, we all count on each other to bring our best efforts in every class. I feel, as their sifu a responsibility to them and I don't want to take that on for someone who I don't know more about than I would learn from having them watch.

So, if I talk with someone on the phone who seems to really want to learn and seems like a good fit for us, then I invite them to join us for the night. I modify our plan for the class (another reason I don't like to do it too often), so that they get a good overview and sample of what it would be like to train with us. I tone down anything that might seem dangerous. I answer questions and we have tea at the end of the night, like we always do. I tell them before they come that at the end of the night we're going to thank each other and part ways and they can get back in touch with me if they are interested in joining the club. That way neither of us is on the spot in the moment. They're not obligated to me and I'm not obligated to them beyond this point.

I'll talk with them, I may go back and forth in email with them and we host them for an evening, that way everyone is sure what they're getting into before they join. I will also say that most people who contact me never make it in either because I don't extend an invitation or because they take the vibe and walk away. I'm responsible for running a good school and helping everyone learn and for doing what I can to ensure everyone's safety and this is my process.

Like I said, it may not be right for anyone else, but it works for me.

 

[Andrew Green]

Why not? Why would a school not allow a prospective student to watch what they're going to step into before actually doing so?

Because some people are self concsious and don't want strangers sitting on the side watching them work out. We should do what is best for our students first.

I can't imagine calling a yoga place up and asking to watch a class. I can't imagine doing it either...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A number of reasons, I guess. Not that I would suggest that it was the right choice for anyone else, necessarily.

First, we're a club, I'm not always looking for or open to expanding membership. When someone is interested, I talk with them on the phone and try to determine whether we're a good fit for them or vice versa. I frequently at this point, suggest some other option for people, different style, different type of gym, maybe something closer to where they live, even other local Wing Chun instructors if I think they might be what they are looking for.

We don't have windows or a sign and I like that people don't necessarily know where we are. We're training, not marketing. I've got limited space and there really isn't any place for anyone to sit and watch if they were to want to do so. I don't teach kids, so there are never parents or rides waiting around for class to end. Our kwoon is in the basement of a commercial building and I'm responsible for whoever is hanging around down there.

I respect what someone said above about having some overbooking, but I don't personally do things that way. I have a small group and we come to train every time. I don't want anyone who isn't committed. Business travel, birthdays, etc not withstanding, we all count on each other to bring our best efforts in every class. I feel, as their sifu a responsibility to them and I don't want to take that on for someone who I don't know more about than I would learn from having them watch.

So, if I talk with someone on the phone who seems to really want to learn and seems like a good fit for us, then I invite them to join us for the night. I modify our plan for the class (another reason I don't like to do it too often), so that they get a good overview and sample of what it would be like to train with us. I tone down anything that might seem dangerous. I answer questions and we have tea at the end of the night, like we always do. I tell them before they come that at the end of the night we're going to thank each other and part ways and they can get back in touch with me if they are interested in joining the club. That way neither of us is on the spot in the moment. They're not obligated to me and I'm not obligated to them beyond this point.

I'll talk with them, I may go back and forth in email with them and we host them for an evening, that way everyone is sure what they're getting into before they join. I will also say that most people who contact me never make it in either because I don't extend an invitation or because they take the vibe and walk away. I'm responsible for running a good school and helping everyone learn and for doing what I can to ensure everyone's safety and this is my process.

Like I said, it may not be right for anyone else, but it works for me.

That's a reasonable approach. And I'm not necessarily talking about just anyone walking in to watch a class (though that happens where I am - not really my preference). In your case, for instance, what if the person you were talking to asked to watch a class when they were invited in for the evening?

The reason I'm a bit of a stickler for this is that I've seen some very bad instructors (it certainly doesn't sound like you're one of them) whose first-day approach left so much to be desired that if I walked in to try a class, I'd actually find it necessary to walk out during class. I'd prefer to simply be able to spot that in advance and know it wasn't someplace I ever wanted to be on the mats.

In the end, it sounds like you do a good job of exposing new folks gently and appropriately, so no problem there - just wondering about the difference in approach.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because some people are self concsious and don't want strangers sitting on the side watching them work out. We should do what is best for our students first.

I can't imagine calling a yoga place up and asking to watch a class. I can't imagine doing it either...

That's a bit different (though not entirely). And I don't think it's necessarily in the students' best interests to protect them from something that makes them feel self-conscious. Getting a bit uncomfortable is part of all growth, and getting beyond feeling "watched" is important to performing well in class, whether there are strangers watching, or just their classmates.

 

[ShortBridge]

...We should do what is best for our students first.

...

First and foremost. Absolutely.

...In your case, for instance, what if the person you were talking to asked to watch a class when they were invited in for the evening?...

I'd really want to understand why. They could probably convince me, but I would really need and want to understand why watching was better for them than participating. A lot of what we do is better felt than seen.

Then, I'd have to get past the issue that I really don't have a gallery to put observers in. We have a very modest space that works great for our training, but has no amenities for a few hours of hanging out. Personally, I think they would be uncomfortable trying to sit and watch and stay out of the way, even if that's what they thought that they wanted. Still, I could possibly be convinced if they explained it right. I've added a step between the call and the visit before, where we meet for tea or something if it feels necessary for either of us to get more comfortable with who we're dealing with.

...just wondering about the difference in approach.

It's just how I do it. Again, I don't advocate that anyone else should. Different time, different place, maybe a different approach for me too.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

First and foremost. Absolutely.



I'd really want to understand why. They could probably convince me, but I would really need and want to understand why watching was better for them than participating. A lot of what we do is better felt than seen.

Then, I'd have to get past the issue that I really don't have a gallery to put observers in. We have a very modest space that works great for our training, but has no amenities for a few hours of hanging out. Personally, I think they would be uncomfortable trying to sit and watch and stay out of the way, even if that's what they thought that they wanted. Still, I could possibly be convinced if they explained it right. I've added a step between the call and the visit before, where we meet for tea or something if it feels necessary for either of us to get more comfortable with who we're dealing with.



It's just how I do it. Again, I don't advocate that anyone else should. Different time, different place, maybe a different approach for me too.

That all seems reasonable. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

 

[ShortBridge]

That all seems reasonable. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Certainly, it's good to be challenged on stuff like this. It makes me prove to myself that I've really thought through it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Certainly, it's good to be challenged on stuff like this. It makes me prove to myself that I've really thought through it.

Agreed. That's one of the things I value on this forum. Especially folks like Steve , who regularly challenges my thinking. His questions and reasoning have actually led me to beef up some areas of what I teach. Even those I disagree with frequently (like Drop Bear) bring me value because they keep me thinking about how to avoid some of the pitfalls they see as inevitable in some types of programs.

 

[ShortBridge]

Yeah, well....that makes you more enlightened than me, then.