Palm Beach County...Florida

[ToraSame]

Wow,
That last post by Torasame reminds me a lot of this article by Martialtalk member Phil Elmore. He even used almost the exact same language about sheep that Sharp Hil uses in this article as well.

I would jus tlike to point out that the way Torasame (which does not mean Tiger Shark as he says) uses the term "kata" is the way it used in Karate and such, not the way that Japanese ninjutsu uses the terms. It would kid of be nice if the people who decide that they like what see in ninjutsu that they use the term without formal training would at least use the same terminology if they are going to bless us with their wisdom.

The shepard speaks again^^^....First of all yes torasame dose mean TigerShark Tora- Tiger Same-Shark, but whatever...Second I used none of the terms out lined in that article...and furthermore have never agreed with anything you have said...but you know you kinda sound a lot like those the they were talking about in the atricle, but whatever...Never once did I say I grew up on the mean streets, or anything like that I was only refering to Ninjutsu being a reality based MA or are you saying it's not....man really check yourself...Bill

 

[Don Roley]

personally I have not done kata since I was very young and remember it be a laid out scenario, and never once did it help defend my butt on the street,

Never once did I say I grew up on the mean streets, or anything like that I was only refering to Ninjutsu being a reality based MA

Just keeping things clear.

First of all yes torasame dose mean TigerShark Tora- Tiger Same-Shark, but whatever...

You seem to be kind of used to dealing with things at a very shallow level instead of going deeply into a subject before declaring yourself correct. In this case, Tora does mean tiger, and same shark, but when you are talking about a Tiger Shark (Galeocerdo cuvier) the Japanese do not use the term. And I am not going to tell a master of Japanese such as yourself since you obviously know the subject matter as well as you seem to know things like what kata is about.

As you said, whatever.

 

[Cryozombie]

Just keeping things clear.
In this case, Tora does mean tiger, and same shark, but when you are talking about a Tiger Shark (Galeocerdo cuvier) the Japanese do not use the term.

ToraSame,

I'm going to agree here... even with my very limited Japanese this does seem wrong... It's almost like a non native english speaking person were to call themselves "Rapier Trout" and say it meant "Swordfish"

"Tiger" is one word in Japanese.

"Shark" is one word in Japanese

"Tigershark" would be a Third word in japanese, not a combination of the first two words.


But, Don, I have to agree with ToraSame also...

"Torasame" means tiger shark. Just in Engrish, not Japanese.

Now that *I* have cleared that up, can we move on to more productive discussion?

 

[ToraSame]

ToraSame,

I'm going to agree here... even with my very limited Japanese this does seem wrong... It's almost like a non native english speaking person were to call themselves "Rapier Trout" and say it meant "Swordfish"

"Tiger" is one word in Japanese.

"Shark" is one word in Japanese

"Tigershark" would be a Third word in japanese, not a combination of the first two words.


But, Don, I have to agree with ToraSame also...

"Torasame" means tiger shark. Just in Engrish, not Japanese.

Now that *I* have cleared that up, can we move on to more productive discussion?

Ok I understand what you are saying, but as is most techniques in ninjutsu take tsuki iri in hatsumi stick fight book on staff weapon considering this a hanbo waza tsuki iri does not even come close to "inserting the stick between the arm and the body" it simply translated as inward thrust I believe...but since this truly has no reflection on weather or not I know my stuff...I guess to go by that all names in martial arts mean what they translating or you don’t know what you are talking about, I would have to say then that you are claming that Hatsumi Sensei doesn't either...we know that is not the case but just want to point out your logic...but once again whatever...ToraSame Tiger Shark.....Bill

 

[Don Roley]

Wow what convoluted.....logic. :uhyeah:

Getting caught in making a mistake in Japanese after you claimed it was correct and then trying to hint that Hatsumi makes the same kid of mistakes is probably very low on the ways I would suggest for getting on the good side of the practicioners of the arts that are known in Japan as ninjutsu.

But of course the point I wqs trying to make (and you do not seem to be able to understand) is that you try to use the same terms, jargon, etc, but really have little in common with the Japanese arts known as ninjutsu. Your definition of the term is a little loose and lets anyone who studies TKD and decides to proclaim themself a ninjutsu founder to do so.

In the future, I can see that we in the ninjutsu folder will be probably talking about spinning back kicks and Gracie submission holds instead of things like kuzushi and nagare.

 

[ToraSame]

Wow what convoluted.....logic. :uhyeah:

Getting caught in making a mistake in Japanese after you claimed it was correct and then trying to hint that Hatsumi makes the same kid of mistakes is probably very low on the ways I would suggest for getting on the good side of the practicioners of the arts that are known in Japan as ninjutsu.

But of course the point I wqs trying to make (and you do not seem to be able to understand) is that you try to use the same terms, jargon, etc, but really have little in common with the Japanese arts known as ninjutsu. Your definition of the term is a little loose and lets anyone who studies TKD and decides to proclaim themself a ninjutsu founder to do so.

In the future, I can see that we in the ninjutsu folder will be probably talking about spinning back kicks and Gracie submission holds instead of things like kuzushi and nagare.

no need to get so upset all I was saying is in ninjutsu things very rarely translate exactly the way they are spoken...and if you were a ninjutsu practitioner you probably would know that, instead you do nothing but insult those who disagree with you...but hey to each his own...and like I said whatever...TORASAME(TIGERSHARK)

 

[Cryozombie]

no need to get so upset all I was saying is in ninjutsu things very rarely translate exactly the way they are spoken...and if you were a ninjutsu practitioner you probably would know that, instead you do nothing but insult those who disagree with you...but hey to each his own...and like I said whatever...TORASAME(TIGERSHARK)

Actually that is true of many arts... in Kempo, they have techniques whos names translate to "Calming the Storm", but they are not LITERALY Calming down a thunderstorm, just as in Ninpo we have techniques that translate as "Throwing a Big Rock" which do not literally mean we are throwing a rock...

Comparing Descriptive translations and grammatical errors are not the same thing... Your argument would make more sense if you had said that in Ninpo we practice technique who's names say "Tossing off a Biggest Boldereything"

It says the same thing, it's just poor grammar.

 

[ToraSame]

Actually that is true of many arts... in Kempo, they have techniques whos names translate to "Calming the Storm", but they are not LITERALY Calming down a thunderstorm, just as in Ninpo we have techniques that translate as "Throwing a Big Rock" which do not literally mean we are throwing a rock...

Comparing Descriptive translations and grammatical errors are not the same thing... Your argument would make more sense if you had said that in Ninpo we practice technique who's names say "Tossing off a Biggest Boldereything"

It says the same thing, it's just poor grammar.

Actually Technopunk you are misunderstanding what I am saying, what I said was for instance in the book stick fighting there is a technique named "Tsuki iri" and in the book the technique is called "inserting the stick between the arm and the body" when the actual translation of Tsuki iri is “entering thrust”, I was pointing out that the Japanese name that Hatsumi sensei used for the technique does not translate to what the English version of the name for that technique as does ToraSame translate to TigerShark, it works with just about anything, in ninjutsu, and I believe the reason for this was explained by Hatsumi sensei at one time when he said that ninjutsu names are spoken in code so that the lamen would not know what was being said...it dates back century’s but I do not know where exactly I read this...but that should explain what I was trying to say...TORASAME

 

[Cryozombie]

Actually Technopunk you are misunderstanding what I am saying, what I said was for instance in the book stick fighting there is a technique named "Tsuki iri" and in the book the technique is called "inserting the stick between the arm and the body" when the actual translation of Tsuki iri is “entering thrust”, I was pointing out that the Japanese name that Hatsumi sensei used for the technique does not translate to what the English version of the name for that technique as does ToraSame translate to TigerShark, it works with just about anything, in ninjutsu, and I believe the reason for this was explained by Hatsumi sensei at one time when he said that ninjutsu names are spoken in code so that the lamen would not know what was being said...it dates back century’s but I do not know where exactly I read this...but that should explain what I was trying to say...TORASAME

Im sorry, your explaination still confuses me... So What you are saying is "tigershark" is a bad translation of "Torasame", like "inserting the stick between the arm and the body" is a bad translation of "Tsuki iri," and not in fact just poor grammar?

Hmmm. That sounds WORSE than just saying its an Engrish translation... But thats just me. Personaly, I don't care if you call yourself "torasame" "Tigershark" "Bob" or "Tony"... I was just agreeing with Don that I didnt think using "torasame" was using the "correct" japanese.

 

[ToraSame]

Im sorry, your explaination still confuses me... So What you are saying is "tigershark" is a bad translation of "Torasame", like "inserting the stick between the arm and the body" is a bad translation of "Tsuki iri," and not in fact just poor grammar?

Hmmm. That sounds WORSE than just saying its an Engrish translation... But thats just me. Personaly, I don't care if you call yourself "torasame" "Tigershark" "Bob" or "Tony"... I was just agreeing with Don that I didnt think using "torasame" was using the "correct" japanese.

you know I was going to try and explain this again but have desided it isn't worth my time...wrong japanese whatever...it just doesn't matter and I am wasting valuble time with the local forum shepard...and the local forum sheep...so later have fun read you books and follow blindly...ToraSame...

 

[Cryozombie]

you know I was going to try and explain this again but have desided it isn't worth my time...wrong japanese whatever...it just doesn't matter and I am wasting valuble time with the local forum shepard...and the local forum sheep...so later have fun read you books and follow blindly...ToraSame...

You know, I wasn't attacking you, I was commenting on your poor use of a language you are very obviously lacking ANY knowledge of... a factual mistake, and you chose to make it a personal attack?

Think VERY VERY carefully first... You want to switch this discussion to Japanese? I will be happy to use my VERY VERY limited ability in it to humiliate your COMPLETE lack of knowledge. STOP now. And my "Japanese" didn’t come from a book, it came from a PERSON. FLUENT in the language, as her and her family CAME from Japan. Not that you would know what a woman was.

 

[Cthulhu]

Why, OH, WHY does it have to be in Palm Beach?! why not Palm Coast?!...I'm in Daytona Beach area, well, rather Volusia County, and I'm like 45-60 minutes from Palm Coast...Not fair! LOL...oh well, Good luck.

And the lack of MA schools around Volusia County is disturbing in itself! I mean, this is Daytona Beach Area, home of Bike Week, NASCAR, and the Beach...

Still a ways away, but closer than Palm Beach, is Dick Severance in Brevard County. I think his Web site is being redone, but there is still some info up at: http://www.n-i-n.com/index.html

Cthulhu