OWS drops the 'peaceful protest' charade

[Tez3]

The masks aren't of Guy Fawkes but of the character of the film. I think people should look up Guy Fawkes and his beliefs before choosing him as a 'hero'. His was a religious 'demostration' not political as such, he thought by killing those in Parliament including the Protestant King he could impose a Catholic monarch on the country. He wasn't for the people or democracy, wasn't even a hero, just another religious fanatic looking to impose his beliefs on others.

 

[Big Don]

The masks aren't of Guy Fawkes but of the character of the film. I think people should look up Guy Fawkes and his beliefs before choosing him as a 'hero'. His was a religious 'demostration' not political as such, he thought by killing those in Parliament including the Protestant King he could impose a Catholic monarch on the country. He wasn't for the people or democracy, wasn't even a hero, just another religious fanatic looking to impose his beliefs on others.

A character in a film who wore a Guy Fawkes mask, proving the film didn't even get the irony.

 

[ballen0351]

The biggest difference between the US and middle eastern revolutions is we already have a legal method built into our constitution to make changes. We don't need to riot in the streets. If your ideas are so great you take them to the people and vote it into power. We have changed our constitution many times so far. Prob is nobody wants what they are selling so now they are throwing a fit and breaking the law.

 

[billc]

Instead of the mask, they should simply adopt the brown, black or red shirts of their ideological predecessors, and at the same time, those shirts are probably easier to get and cost a lot less. They also hide dirt and blood stains better, but you want to wash them on hot after pre-soaking them.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The biggest difference between the US and middle eastern revolutions is we already have a legal method built into our constitution to make changes. We don't need to riot in the streets. If your ideas are so great you take them to the people and vote it into power. We have changed our constitution many times so far. Prob is nobody wants what they are selling so now they are throwing a fit and breaking the law.

Yep. I love the comments that hey, the OWS protested peacefully, but they didn't suddenly get jobs, the banks didn't forgive all the outstanding loans, the environment didn't magically clean itself up, the government didn't confiscate all the money from the 1%, so OF COURSE we're getting violent now. Duh! Right; that's how Democracy works. Instead of voting, you protest. And if you don't get what you want, you throw bottles and bricks at the cops, storm buildings, set flags on fire. Yes, it's all so clear to me now. Violence and intimidation. Stupid me, I thought you just voted for the candidates.

 

[Tez3]

Instead of the mask, they should simply adopt the brown, black or red shirts of their ideological predecessors, and at the same time, those shirts are probably easier to get and cost a lot less. They also hide dirt and blood stains better, but you want to wash them on hot after pre-soaking them.

It'ss interesting you can make so light of the suffering that these black/brown shirts caused with their right wing fascist beliefs. Luckily Americans have no histroy with these types, we have and we know what they are. If you look at Mosley's black shirts you will find they were thoroughly right wing, very organised and as far from these protestors as you can get.
Closing your eyes to the truth means you will get a very sharp, nasty wake up call one day.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It'ss interesting you can make so light of the suffering that these black/brown shirts caused with their right wing fascist beliefs. Luckily Americans have no histroy with these types, we have and we know what they are. If you look at Mosley's black shirts you will find they were thoroughly right wing, very organised and as far from these protestors as you can get.
Closing your eyes to the truth means you will get a very sharp, nasty wake up call one day.

I don't think this type of thuggery is limited to right or left wing of the political spectrum.

The fact is that OWS is relying upon Anonymous to provide muscle for their cause. Not breaking bones and breaking windows, no. But please notice that Anonymous has adopted the OWS cause wholesale; they hack into databases and obtain the names, addresses, credit card information, and other personal data on the police known to have arrested OWS protesters. They put this information online as a form of intimidation; they are essentially saying "If you mess with OWS, this is what happens to you." Then they strongly 'hint' that something 'bad' might happen to the police officers or their families; more intimidation.

The only real difference I see between Anonymous and the Brown Shirts is that Anonymous hides in the shadows. Their methods are the same; just updated for a modern world. They don't break your bones, they break your life. They are the OWS bullyboys.

Left wing? Right wing? I don't give two craps. They're CRIMINALS.

 

[Tez3]

I don't think this type of thuggery is limited to right or left wing of the political spectrum.

The fact is that OWS is relying upon Anonymous to provide muscle for their cause. Not breaking bones and breaking windows, no. But please notice that Anonymous has adopted the OWS cause wholesale; they hack into databases and obtain the names, addresses, credit card information, and other personal data on the police known to have arrested OWS protesters. They put this information online as a form of intimidation; they are essentially saying "If you mess with OWS, this is what happens to you." Then they strongly 'hint' that something 'bad' might happen to the police officers or their families; more intimidation.

The only real difference I see between Anonymous and the Brown Shirts is that Anonymous hides in the shadows. Their methods are the same; just updated for a modern world. They don't break your bones, they break your life. They are the OWS bullyboys.

Left wing? Right wing? I don't give two craps. They're CRIMINALS.

I agree that violence isn't limited to one side or the other just that when Bili talks of violence he always means the 'left' aand has stated more than once that the 'right' never use violence. The horror the brown and black shirts brought shouldn't be underestimated nor overlooked. Too many people still alive remember the horrors.
I don't think the agenda of what you call criminals (and I agree btw) is at all clear other than the obvious violence and intimidation. Without getting over paranoid and conspiracy theorist it would be interesting to find out the 'real' agenda.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/may/11/anonymous-behind-the-mask

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I agree that violence isn't limited to one side or the other just that when Bili talks of violence he always means the 'left' aand has stated more than once that the 'right' never use violence. The horror the brown and black shirts brought shouldn't be underestimated nor overlooked. Too many people still alive remember the horrors.
I don't think the agenda of what you call criminals (and I agree btw) is at all clear other than the obvious violence and intimidation. Without getting over paranoid and conspiracy theorist it would be interesting to find out the 'real' agenda.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/may/11/anonymous-behind-the-mask

It's a side-issue. National Socialism was beyond simple 'left' and 'right' definitions. They could be called 'right' in that they despised communists. They could be called 'left' in that they were socialists; early on, they were anti-capitalist, anti-big business, and anti-bourgeois. The OWS does resemble some of the latter definitions of National Socialism in that respect.

However, I am not comparing ideology to ideology, but rather methods to methods. The National Socialists had their bullyboy enforcers; so does OWS. In that, they are very similar.

 

[Tez3]

It's a side-issue. National Socialism was beyond simple 'left' and 'right' definitions. They could be called 'right' in that they despised communists. They could be called 'left' in that they were socialists; early on, they were anti-capitalist, anti-big business, and anti-bourgeois. The OWS does resemble some of the latter definitions of National Socialism in that respect.

However, I am not comparing ideology to ideology, but rather methods to methods. The National Socialists had their bullyboy enforcers; so does OWS. In that, they are very similar.

However, the American definitions of socialism are different from the rest of Europes so we are talking at cross purposes when we say 'socialism' where the Nazis are concerned. Being on the 'right' doesn't mean, here, that one hates communists so isn't something one can use to define 'the right'. Here, the right, especially the extreme right stands for government control over everything, censorship, rascism and no tolerance for dissent, by that standards we judge the Fascist to be on the 'right'. Hatred of communism means nothing as a hatred of all opposition is the extreme rights usual stance.

The OWS has little resemblance to left or right as far as we see, it's anarchist. the Nazis didn't start out this way they had a tight agenda and were more focused on who they destroyed, they wanted to be the Establishment not to destroy it.

Socialism in Europe isn't anti big business nor is it anti capitalist, not even anti bourgeois.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

However, the American definitions of socialism are different from the rest of Europes so we are talking at cross purposes when we say 'socialism' where the Nazis are concerned. Being on the 'right' doesn't mean, here, that one hates communists so isn't something one can use to define 'the right'. Here, the right, especially the extreme right stands for government control over everything, censorship, rascism and no tolerance for dissent, by that standards we judge the Fascist to be on the 'right'. Hatred of communism means nothing as a hatred of all opposition is the extreme rights usual stance.

The OWS has little resemblance to left or right as far as we see, it's anarchist. the Nazis didn't start out this way they had a tight agenda and were more focused on who they destroyed, they wanted to be the Establishment not to destroy it.

Socialism in Europe isn't anti big business nor is it anti capitalist, not even anti bourgeois.

OK, fine, but again we're talking about ideology and I'm comparing methods. The methods they are using (Anonymous to do their 'dirty work' and intimidate people) is the same. That's my point. I am not really that interested in the ideology, because OWS is all over the place. There are anarchists, socialists, communists, unionists, and probably even a few Trotskyists in the mix. I don't care. They're criminal scum, and Anonymous is being used as their virtual storm troopers.

 

[Sukerkin]

So, no strong opinions on this one then, Bill? :lol:

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So, no strong opinions on this one then, Bill? :lol:

I actually had kind of made my peace with this nonsensical sign-waving and non-bathery; the ignorance of youth, the need to rebel. Whatever. But my first worry when I saw OWS arising was that they would turn into the Weather Underground of the SDS; I saw parallels and mentioned them. The only thing the movement lacked was a charismatic set of leaders and violence. However, my worries were pooh-poohed; I was being paranoid, it wasn't going to happen.

So how now? Suddenly those who told me I was being paranoid are either very quiet, or they are actually defending this crap as 'not violent'. Hurling bottles at police is violent. Breaking into City Hall and trashing the place is violent. Anyone who says differently is not truly in touch with reality, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm angry. I read history. It repeats. And we're so stupid, we keep insisting that this time is different. It's never different, it's the same.

 

[ballen0351]

5 homicides in oakland over the weekend. Ssems the police already have their hands full and don't need to be dealing with these protester punks that broke into city hall and smashed art projects made by elementary school kids.

 

[billc]

The nazi brown shirts, national socialists, were socialists, and the red shirts were socialists. The theme in Germany was "first brown then red." Still amazes me that people will acknowledge the horrors of the national socialists and then in the same breath ignore their brothers, the international socialists, who murdered more people in more countries over more time. Both sets of socialists wanted the government in control to make things either better or more fair. We've seen how that turned out everywhere it was tried. Don't worry Tez, it won't sneak up on me. I don't want the government to have any more control than the smallest amount they need to do what is constitutionally mandated. You, however, have already ceded to the government your healthcare and ever more of your daily affairs. Who needs to be more on watch?


I am considering opening up a new business here in chicago and I might be interested in starting franchises in other cities. This year the G8 is coming to Chicago so I thought, why not make some money. I would like to set up some stands to sell light weight, throwable, garbage cans, that have the structural integrity to go through a starbucks window in one try. I am also thinking of selling hoodies and bandanas to help the thugs hide their identities. Those Guy Fawkes masks seem to be hot ticket items so of course we'll sell those. Any other ideas to increase sales to these thugs?

 

[Empty Hands]

If all OWS protestors are violent insurrectionists, then all Catholic priests are pedophiles. Same argument.

 

[The Last Legionary]

OWS is to peace what triox is to grass.

 

[Josh Oakley]

If all OWS protestors are violent insurrectionists, then all Catholic priests are pedophiles. Same argument.

Here is my problem with this statement, empty hands. When the craziness at UC Davis happened, I talked with a number of people within the Occupy movement and tried to say that the movements are different in each area. They made vehement arguments that they were indeed a unified movement.

And in Seattle, our Occupy movement is NOT committing to peaceful protests and is NOT against violent protest. They can't fly the banner of peace and uniformity only when it OS convenient to do so.


Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If all OWS protestors are violent insurrectionists, then all Catholic priests are pedophiles. Same argument.

Fair point. However, I don't know how to parse the difference between the violent insurrectionists and the non-violent peaceniks when they're storming City Hall and tossing bottles and improvised explosives at cops. I say if they're there, and they're not dispersing when told to by lawful authority, then a nightstick upside the punkin' haid is appropriate. I'm sick of these punks. If they want to mope around being smelly and waving signs, and don't break the law, I don't care. I don't like 'em, but I don't care what they do.

 

[Tez3]

The nazi brown shirts, national socialists, were socialists, and the red shirts were socialists. The theme in Germany was "first brown then red." Still amazes me that people will acknowledge the horrors of the national socialists and then in the same breath ignore their brothers, the international socialists, who murdered more people in more countries over more time. Both sets of socialists wanted the government in control to make things either better or more fair. We've seen how that turned out everywhere it was tried. Don't worry Tez, it won't sneak up on me. I don't want the government to have any more control than the smallest amount they need to do what is constitutionally mandated. You, however, have already ceded to the government your healthcare and ever more of your daily affairs. Who needs to be more on watch?


I am considering opening up a new business here in chicago and I might be interested in starting franchises in other cities. This year the G8 is coming to Chicago so I thought, why not make some money. I would like to set up some stands to sell light weight, throwable, garbage cans, that have the structural integrity to go through a starbucks window in one try. I am also thinking of selling hoodies and bandanas to help the thugs hide their identities. Those Guy Fawkes masks seem to be hot ticket items so of course we'll sell those. Any other ideas to increase sales to these thugs?

Really, you think we ignore things we have greater knowledge of than you? You really have no idea what socialists are, you just think in terms of 'reds under the beds' and 'better dead than red'. Funny how freedom loving people elect socialist governments and actually get freedom, prosperity, their own businesses as well as big businesses and have less governmental control than your country has. It must be so shocking to you that you prefer to ignore the truth.
Do you know who the black shirts were and what happened to them?