Owning A School

[MJS]

I thought I'd put this out to the members of the forum. This topic was one that came in the FMA section, but since some members do not post there, I wanted to get the opinions of others.

So, the topic was that of owning/running a full time martial arts school. The topic was a FMA school on the other thread, but for the sake of discussion here, any school can replace FMA. There were 2 different opinions in that thread:

One member stated that if you didn't teach full time, in a school setting, then your skills would not be on the same level as someone who did. You would have less people to work with, thus your skill level would not improve. This person claimed that anyone who didn't do a FT thing, was a hobbyist, and not a serious or dedicated martial artist.

I countered that by saying that there are many martial artists in the world, who are very dedicated, who have alot of skill, but choose to be more low key and teach either out of their house, ie:garage, backyard, etc., or perhaps even rent space a few nights a week, out of an existing school. IMO, they're still giving back to the art, teaching, spreading the art to others, etc. Of course, I'm sure there're many top people out there, who have a M-F 'day job' and teach PT. Does this make them any less of a martial artist? IMO, no.

Additionally, some people may feel, especially in todays economy, that running a business, isn't the best thing to do right now. I mean, if someone had to make cuts in their family, because one or both parents lost a job, and if its a toss up between continuing to pay $80 or more a month for martial arts lessons, or using that money to put food on the table...well, shouldn't take much thought to figure out what they should do.

Now, in closing I'll say this. I'm not against anyone who runs their own business. Be it a commercial school or something they do on a lower scale out of their garage, they're still doing a service to the martial arts world. I just was taken aback a bit, by someone saying that unless you teach FT, and do nothing but that, then you're not any good.

On the flip side, does running a business mean that what you're teaching is quality or that the teacher themselves is quality? The number of mcdojos in the world are examples of that. So, even if I dont teach FT, that doesnt mean that I could not train in a smaller setting and still have good skill.

Anyways...enough rambling. I'll open the cyber floor to everyone else, to hear their thoughts on this.

 

[Andrew Green]

The quality of training matters as well.

But all things being equal the guy teaching and training 30 hours of classes a week will improve faster then the guy teaching and training in 5 hours of classes a week.

Of course you only get good at what you do, and spending 5 hours a week on good material is better then spending 30 hours on nonsense.

 

[KELLYG]

Good rant!
I am a student, I know that I do not have what it takes to be a teacher. I can not seem to translate the physical to the verbal. I don't see a difference between teaching full or part time. I think that you are either a martial artist or a martial hobbyist according to attitude vs the time teaching. I also think that martial artists are not obligated to teach. Quality is what makes the difference. I would much rather spend 1 hour and get quality than 10 hours and get crap. I would also prefer to learn from someone that wants to teach, with the lessons being fresh and exciting, not someone going through motions. Also with an, independent teacher, you also are able to spend quality time to work on the finer points vs having to worry about how much time is left and when the next class starts. Also a smaller setting allows for a bit of flexibility in what is being worked on, and is driven by the student not the proscribed curriculum.

 

[dancingalone]

I train about 10-15 hours a week these days, mostly keeping up my skills in karate and aikido, but I do find time to pick up something new almost weekly. (Would like this to be in every session, but that's another thread.)

I only hold an official class for my students 4 hours a week. Obviously it's not a full time school. Nevertheless I still feel I am growing as a martial artist.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The quality of training matters as well.

But all things being equal the guy teaching and training 30 hours of classes a week will improve faster then the guy teaching and training in 5 hours of classes a week.

Of course you only get good at what you do, and spending 5 hours a week on good material is better then spending 30 hours on nonsense.

The guy teaching 30 hours a week might also get complacent or plain lazy about his work and start rehashing all the same stuff you know or even try to get by wioth the bare minimum.

The guy who teaches 5 hours a week might be 110% into what he is doing and will give his students his/her all.

It all depends on who you are dealling with.

I know as a personal trainer, 2 years ago I had a full plate and I started to just give out Template workouts and not give my all.
I caught myself and had a talk with myself but I know how easy even good folks get lazy.

I personally want my own space to do training and MA instruction in but I know that there are people doing it out of their garage that can do a great job as well.

 

[teekin]

I have allways wondered why some MA teachers don't continue taking lessons and/or clinics. Or at least competing as a way of having an impartial judge check their skill level. Doesn't everybody need a ground person to keep bad habits from re-appearing? and to keep advancing in the right direction? Is MA that different from my other chosen sport (dressage) ?
and I know of several part time instructors who are brilliant MA ists. They compete and win at National and International level. The money from a full time job pays for thier own training and travel, keeps the students they teach a select bunch, allows for a flexible schedual so they can travel and fight, keeps the fee's low.
lori

 

[Xue Sheng]

My first sifu teaches full time.

My taiji sifu teaches part time

My Sanda sifu, technically, does not teach. He only teaches people he knows and trusts and has no set place to train other than outside.

As for Martial Arts skill my first sifu is my far inferior to both.

My Sanda sifu is a bit younger but a much better fighter.

My Taiji sifu is older but much better trained and better at using his art for fighting if need be.

But on a side note, and I read the FMA thread by the way, it would be interesting to know the response to the fact that many teachers of MA from Japan and China don’t take any American MAist seriously whether they teach full time or not without proof. And some of them teach outside in a park and have no official school. Teaching full time does not equate to skill or lack of it equates to teaching full time.

 

[Andrew Green]

The guy teaching 30 hours a week might also get complacent or plain lazy about his work and start rehashing all the same stuff you know or even try to get by wioth the bare minimum.

Yup, time spent needs to be well spent or it doesn't count.

 

[PatMunk]

So, the topic was that of owning/running a full time martial arts school. The topic was a FMA school on the other thread, but for the sake of discussion here, any school can replace FMA. There were 2 different opinions in that thread:

One member stated that if you didn't teach full time, in a school setting, then your skills would not be on the same level as someone who did. You would have less people to work with, thus your skill level would not improve. This person claimed that anyone who didn't do a FT thing, was a hobbyist, and not a serious or dedicated martial artist.

I think this person doesn't really understand what he's talking about. First off, you could probably say that 75% of the so called full time studios are really part time studios.

How many of the Full Time Studios actually teach 10 to 12 hours a day. How many of them could you go into anytime and see them teaching lessons. Not many unless they are doing mostly private lessons all day long.

Most of the so called full time studios only teach 1 or 2, 2 to 3 hour classes a day. That's part time in my opinion. To be a full time studio the instructor would have to be teaching classes one after another from the time they opened until they closed.

How many studios that open at 10:00 am and close at 10:00 pm and run classes the entire time. Just being open and on site doesn't make it a full time studio, when only offering 2 or even 3 group classes during the day.

The number of students someone teaches doesn't make them any better or worse than anyone else. It's the quality of his training that makes or breaks him.

Several years ago I used to visit a couple of studios near me .. they held classes 3 times a week and the classes were 3 hours long. Now they were proud to tell you that they trained 9 full hours a week .... yuk yuk ... every one of their classes started with 30 minutes of stretching, which wasn't a bad thing in itself but it could have been completed in 15 minutes. Then came 1.5 hours of running in place, jumping jacks, push ups, sit ups, touching of their toes, basic PE class. After that they did Katas for about 30 minutes, 15 minutes on some very basic one step sparing, 15 minutes on Kata training, and the remaining 15 minutes was spent on sparring.

Now out of the 3 hour training class only about 45 minutes were devoted to karate training, and 15 minutes to no touch sparring.

I agree that it doesn't matter if the studio is part time in a garage, back yard, park or home. If the training is good then so will be the students. Some of the Greatest Martial Artists the world has known NEVER run a full time studio .. Most of them taught where ever someone wanted to learn.

That's my kind of Instructor.

 

[Tez3]

I know I think of only a couple of people who make a living from martial arts, that's not teaching all the time either as it doesn't make enough money. The income comes from books, videos and seminars. In this country at least I don't think there's enough money around to enable anyone to become a full time teacher. In MMA I know of only two fighters who make their living fighting and that's because they are sponsored and do seminars teaching. All the martial arts instructors and coaches I know have to have a 'proper' job to live, they may teach as much as they can but it's never likely to be a fulltime thing.
I think teaching full time could be a mistake, it would be for me, the freshness would go and it would turn into just another job, a slog to make a living. My daughter loved horses, riding was a huge pleasure for her but since she's been working with them, all the pleasure has gone and it's just another job.

 

[Andrew Green]

To be a full time studio the instructor would have to be teaching classes one after another from the time they opened until they closed.

There is a lot more to running a school then teaching classes. It is also impossible for a instructor to teach 40 hours a week, school teachers come close doing about 5 hours a day (9-3:30, minus lunch / recess, which doesn't include Music or PE classes), Post secondary instructors do less class room hours.

Mentally you'd burn out, and physically your body wouldn't take it. Not to mention all the other stuff that goes with running a gym wouldn't get done.

How many studios that open at 10:00 am and close at 10:00 pm and run classes the entire time. Just being open and on site doesn't make it a full time studio, when only offering 2 or even 3 group classes during the day.

Not many, and there is no reason for most to even attempt it. Are you at your day job that many hours? Do you consider it a full time job?

As for being open without classes, open mat sessions are great. Visit a boxing gym and you can see how being open without a 'class' going on can still lead to great training.

 

[MJS]

The quality of training matters as well.

But all things being equal the guy teaching and training 30 hours of classes a week will improve faster then the guy teaching and training in 5 hours of classes a week.

Of course you only get good at what you do, and spending 5 hours a week on good material is better then spending 30 hours on nonsense.

Lets take someone whos been training for 20yrs. This person, by that time, has obviously developed a certain skill level. Will that skill depleat itself if he teaches 5hrs a week vs. 30? Even if it did, IMO, I dont think it would be that noticeable. Additionally, I'd also go so far as to say that out of those 30hrs of teaching, how much time was spent on material for the person teaching? I recall way back when I was at a school. It was supposed to be 1 Sat. every other week. Eventually it went to every Sat., then to Sat plus another day during the week, to a few more days during the week, until it was pretty much everyday. There were times when I would show up to a class, for myself, but ended up helping to teach.

So, in the end, I was getting real good at the under belt stuff, but when did I ever have time to be the student, and not the teacher?

My goal is to keep training until I no longer can. I teach from time to time, but I enjoy being a student again. I feel that at this time, the money that I make, the benefits that I get at my 40 hr a week job, which is not M-F by the way, is much greater, than I'd ever dream of making, were I to open a school today, and teach there.

Additionally, I have to wonder....are there any 40hr a week schools in existance? If so, how many? So if there are none or few, and the majority of school owners are teaching 3-4 hrs a day, then in reality, they're no different than those that're teaching out of their garage or backyard, for about the same amount of time.

Just for clarification, that was what this big debate was about....the difference between someone who owned a school, in a commercial setting, vs. those that teach privately in a garage out of their home, to a few hard core dedicated students.

 

[MJS]

Good rant!
I am a student, I know that I do not have what it takes to be a teacher. I can not seem to translate the physical to the verbal. I don't see a difference between teaching full or part time. I think that you are either a martial artist or a martial hobbyist according to attitude vs the time teaching. I also think that martial artists are not obligated to teach. Quality is what makes the difference. I would much rather spend 1 hour and get quality than 10 hours and get crap. I would also prefer to learn from someone that wants to teach, with the lessons being fresh and exciting, not someone going through motions. Also with an, independent teacher, you also are able to spend quality time to work on the finer points vs having to worry about how much time is left and when the next class starts. Also a smaller setting allows for a bit of flexibility in what is being worked on, and is driven by the student not the proscribed curriculum.

Good points. A few weeks ago, I taught a Kenpo class, during the afternoon. The school I train at, has noon time classes, 2 times a week. The classes are usually pretty small. So this day, there was 2 students, and myself as the teacher. I touched on things in that class, that are not normally covered in the regular larger group settings, and in the end, the 2 got more out of that 1hr.

Personally, I love the smaller settings, either as the teacher or the student, due to the reasons you just listed. As I said, in the smaller settings, you usually get a more dedicated group, a group that is there to train, not worried about contact, getting banged up a bit, or any of that other stuff. They're there to learn and put in alot of blood, sweat and tears.

I take a weekly private lesson with my Kenpo inst. and I feel that its the best hour that I spend training. I can work on what I want, work on things that are not normally done in regular classes, and the learning goes alot easier overall.

 

[MJS]

I train about 10-15 hours a week these days, mostly keeping up my skills in karate and aikido, but I do find time to pick up something new almost weekly. (Would like this to be in every session, but that's another thread.)

I only hold an official class for my students 4 hours a week. Obviously it's not a full time school. Nevertheless I still feel I am growing as a martial artist.

Good points! IMO, yes you are growing, and you're also giving something back to not only your students, but to the art.

 

[MJS]

I have allways wondered why some MA teachers don't continue taking lessons and/or clinics. Or at least competing as a way of having an impartial judge check their skill level. Doesn't everybody need a ground person to keep bad habits from re-appearing? and to keep advancing in the right direction? Is MA that different from my other chosen sport (dressage) ?
and I know of several part time instructors who are brilliant MA ists. They compete and win at National and International level. The money from a full time job pays for thier own training and travel, keeps the students they teach a select bunch, allows for a flexible schedual so they can travel and fight, keeps the fee's low.
lori

Agreed! All of my teachers, both in Kenpo and Arnis, always encourage me to attend seminars/camps and to train with others. Any chance I get, providing my work schedule allows, I attend these type of things.

 

[MJS]

I think this person doesn't really understand what he's talking about. First off, you could probably say that 75% of the so called full time studios are really part time studios.

How many of the Full Time Studios actually teach 10 to 12 hours a day. How many of them could you go into anytime and see them teaching lessons. Not many unless they are doing mostly private lessons all day long.

Most of the so called full time studios only teach 1 or 2, 2 to 3 hour classes a day. That's part time in my opinion. To be a full time studio the instructor would have to be teaching classes one after another from the time they opened until they closed.

How many studios that open at 10:00 am and close at 10:00 pm and run classes the entire time. Just being open and on site doesn't make it a full time studio, when only offering 2 or even 3 group classes during the day.

The number of students someone teaches doesn't make them any better or worse than anyone else. It's the quality of his training that makes or breaks him.

Several years ago I used to visit a couple of studios near me .. they held classes 3 times a week and the classes were 3 hours long. Now they were proud to tell you that they trained 9 full hours a week .... yuk yuk ... every one of their classes started with 30 minutes of stretching, which wasn't a bad thing in itself but it could have been completed in 15 minutes. Then came 1.5 hours of running in place, jumping jacks, push ups, sit ups, touching of their toes, basic PE class. After that they did Katas for about 30 minutes, 15 minutes on some very basic one step sparing, 15 minutes on Kata training, and the remaining 15 minutes was spent on sparring.

Now out of the 3 hour training class only about 45 minutes were devoted to karate training, and 15 minutes to no touch sparring.

I agree that it doesn't matter if the studio is part time in a garage, back yard, park or home. If the training is good then so will be the students. Some of the Greatest Martial Artists the world has known NEVER run a full time studio .. Most of them taught where ever someone wanted to learn.

That's my kind of Instructor.

Fantastic post!!! These are the exact same points that I was trying to make in that other thread, but seemed to go over that persons head. BTW, if you're interested in reading, its in the FMA section. And yes, the majority of schools that I've seen, do just what you said...teach a total of 2-3 hrs a day, with the classes ranging, depending on what age group, from 30min to 1hr. IMO, no, thats not full time, even if they're doing it 5 days a week. As I said, the guy who teaches out of his garage or backyard, to a small dedicated group, is doing the same thing, difference being, that the students are getting more out of that hour than the ones in the commercial setting, especially if its taught as you described.

Even when I do teach my classes, its pretty much expected that the students arrive early, and warmup on their own. So when the class starts, no more than 5-10min tops, is spent on 'warmups' and then we get into the meat of the class. I'm not there to teach jumpjacks and pushups, I'm there to teach the art.

 

[MJS]

There is a lot more to running a school then teaching classes. It is also impossible for a instructor to teach 40 hours a week, school teachers come close doing about 5 hours a day (9-3:30, minus lunch / recess, which doesn't include Music or PE classes), Post secondary instructors do less class room hours.

Mentally you'd burn out, and physically your body wouldn't take it. Not to mention all the other stuff that goes with running a gym wouldn't get done.

So again, in reality, for this guy in that other thread to mock the garage schools, the commercial ones are on the same level, after you trim away all the other stuff.

Not many, and there is no reason for most to even attempt it. Are you at your day job that many hours? Do you consider it a full time job?

I'm at my FT job 8hrs a day, unless I work a double, then its 16. Yes, I consider it a FT job. My wifes step father owned his own business. There were many days, he'd start at 8 or 9am, and not come home until 6 or 7pm, depending on the job.

As for being open without classes, open mat sessions are great. Visit a boxing gym and you can see how being open without a 'class' going on can still lead to great training.

I'm assuming you're talking about people who go there during off class time, to work out? If so, then IMO, thats no different than me taking an hour of my day and running thru Kenpo material. Its also no different than me and a few buddies getting together, outside of the school, in a park, backyard, garage, and working out.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

My sensei is an independent businessman, he does not draw an income from teaching karate. In fact, he charges so little to students, that the dojo does not make any money. He freely discloses this. The black belt students who teach for him do not draw any money or other compensation either. Several of them have been doing this for him for well over 25 years.

I am also aware of the personal and training relationship that my sensei had (and has) with the acknowledged 1st-generation masters of Isshinryu, such as Sensei's Harrill and Mitchum. If his skills were not superb, he would not be 8th Dan under them, I have no doubt. Therefore, whether he teaches full time or part time, I believe I am getting the finest training available for an Isshinryu student.

What does this mean to me?

Well, to my way of thinking, if my sensei and his senior students did not love what they do, they would not do it. Why would they? They make no money from it. They are not boastful or self-aggrandizing in any way; so I do not believe they do it for their egos either.

Basically, I believe that this is karate at its finest. Dedicated practiioners of the art, coming together through a mutual love of karate and a sincere respect for our particular style. We have no contracts, no one is obligated to stay, there are no promises or guarantees of promotion. There is only hard work and dedication; the rewards are mostly internal to oneself.

If I had not been so fortunate as to find this particular dojo, or if I were forced to leave the area, I would find another school. Would the training be as good? My heart tells me it would not.

My sensei says it better than I could:

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2009/06/29/news/local_news/doc4a4882b95bfcd258357215.txt

 

[PatMunk]

Fantastic post!!! These are the exact same points that I was trying to make in that other thread, but seemed to go over that persons head. BTW, if you're interested in reading, its in the FMA section. And yes, the majority of schools that I've seen, do just what you said...teach a total of 2-3 hrs a day, with the classes ranging, depending on what age group, from 30min to 1hr. IMO, no, thats not full time, even if they're doing it 5 days a week. As I said, the guy who teaches out of his garage or backyard, to a small dedicated group, is doing the same thing, difference being, that the students are getting more out of that hour than the ones in the commercial setting, especially if its taught as you described.

Even when I do teach my classes, its pretty much expected that the students arrive early, and warmup on their own. So when the class starts, no more than 5-10min tops, is spent on 'warmups' and then we get into the meat of the class. I'm not there to teach jumpjacks and pushups, I'm there to teach the art.

The way you said you do your classes is the way I feel the classes should be run. I'm not here to run something they can get anywhere for 30.00 per month. I'm there to give them something they can't get elsewhere.

The classes I mentioned in the other post ... the instructor had the class broken up into different groups by rank .. he went around and spent about 5 minutes at the most with each group .. that means that out of a 3 hour workout they/their group had a hands on with the instructor only 5 minutes.

So 15 minutes a week training with an instructor isn't bad ... lol

 

[MJS]

My sensei is an independent businessman, he does not draw an income from teaching karate. In fact, he charges so little to students, that the dojo does not make any money. He freely discloses this. The black belt students who teach for him do not draw any money or other compensation either. Several of them have been doing this for him for well over 25 years.

I am also aware of the personal and training relationship that my sensei had (and has) with the acknowledged 1st-generation masters of Isshinryu, such as Sensei's Harrill and Mitchum. If his skills were not superb, he would not be 8th Dan under them, I have no doubt. Therefore, whether he teaches full time or part time, I believe I am getting the finest training available for an Isshinryu student.

What does this mean to me?

Well, to my way of thinking, if my sensei and his senior students did not love what they do, they would not do it. Why would they? They make no money from it. They are not boastful or self-aggrandizing in any way; so I do not believe they do it for their egos either.

Basically, I believe that this is karate at its finest. Dedicated practiioners of the art, coming together through a mutual love of karate and a sincere respect for our particular style. We have no contracts, no one is obligated to stay, there are no promises or guarantees of promotion. There is only hard work and dedication; the rewards are mostly internal to oneself.

If I had not been so fortunate as to find this particular dojo, or if I were forced to leave the area, I would find another school. Would the training be as good? My heart tells me it would not.

My sensei says it better than I could:

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2009/06/29/news/local_news/doc4a4882b95bfcd258357215.txt

What a great post Bill, and the article was very nice as well! IMHO, this is what the arts are all about. Sure, its always nice to make money, but I think, and I may be wrong, that sometimes, when its a toss up between making the cash and quality teaching, the latter often suffers.

Its nice to see an instructor, such as yours, whos goal isn't the cash, but instead, giving back to both the students and the art. You certainly have a good school to train at.